Hong-Kong Protests

Mr T

Senior Member
Lie. Liberal Party is pro-Business not pro-CCP. Liberal Party has flip flop so many times that both the Pro-Beijing camp and Pro-Dem camp don't trust them.

The Liberal Party usually votes for CCP candidates during the Chief Executive elections and usually with the other pro-Beijing parties in the HK assembly. It is pro-CCP. Its members just have brains and don't always follow instructions from Beijing.

And Martin Lee thinks 2003 article 23 is a very good law and should have been passed. Are you are trying to say Martin Lee doesn't know better.

Article 23 is a principle, not a law. If it was a law the CCP wouldn't have had any reason to introduce the new security legislation.

A son of Kuomintang Lieutenant General

What does that have to do with anything? I can remember Chinese nationalists regularly calling the KMT their best friends (at least whenever Taiwan comes up) and stuff like "when China is unified the KMT can come to the mainland to be the Opposition". But now being the son of someone in the KMT puts you under suspicion? Right.

Appreciate the Hong Kong bill passed by the US Congress, which makes Hong Kong an independent political entity.

HK was supposed to be an independent politcal entity - at least in the context of autonomy for non-international issues.

The best starting point is to persuade the last governor, Patten, to use his near-authoritarian power to strengthen the democratic system In order to protect human rights, Patten, who possesses the means of British colonial law, must promote and establish these systems.

This sounds an awful lot like before the handover. If you'd bothered to read my post, you'll have noticed the bit where the Democratic Party negotiated in good faith with the CCP after 1997.

Szeto Wah..

Resigned as a legislator in 2004. He didn't make the Democratic Party vote for the reform package, even if he supported it.

Western countries have directly interfered with HK affair including financial and intelligent support which is defined as "Color Revolution." Many of radical HK teenagers were sent to camps in Taiwan for training of tactics and strategies and organization of protests including some weapon training. Don't try to lie your way out of this.

Nice strawman. I didn't claim no foreign countries had taken an interest in Hong Kong. The issue is the disparity in power between the CCP and the common people in HK.

The CCP has always had all the legal and security power in Hong Kong, either directly or indirectly. They and their cronies in the city have banned non-violent protests against the Chinese anthem, banned localist parties and politicians, harrassed other pan-democratic figures, kidnapped booksellers, banned protests in the city, tried indoctrinating children with pro-CCP propaganda and protected the HK police over complaints of violence. Now they've just decided to make it illegal to say mean things about the CCP and its allies in HK.

The little support a number of protesters have received is a drop in the ocean in comparison.

Also, before you try to claim that most HK people support the CCP, I draw your attention to the fact that the pro-Beijing parties have never held a majority of seats in the the HK assembly from the geographic constituences. Not once.

Sometimes I think that's the real reason the CCP won't allow proper electoral reform in Hong Kong, because it's mad a majority of HKers refuse to vote for its proxies.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A former Beijing official in charge of Hong Kong affairs has accused the city’s first post-handover chief justice of failing to understand the Basic Law when expressing his concern over the chief executive’s power to designate judges for
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
cases.


Xu Ze, the ex-deputy director of the cabinet-level Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, said the “persistent misunderstanding” of Hong Kong’s political system displayed by former top judge
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and his supporters was the main reason for distorted perceptions about how the city was governed.

Hmm. So on the one hand we have the former Chief Justice of Hong Kong saying that Carrie Lam being able to pick judges to decide cases the government is bringing against citizens undermines judicial independence. On the other hand, we have a Communist official who doesn't have a law degree, let alone been a judge, criticising the former Chief Justice for not "understanding" the law.

No wonder we're in this situation, the leadership of the CCP thinks that the law is whatever they want it to be on any given day.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Even pro-CCP politicians like those in the Liberal Party opposed the 2003 national security law. The problem was that, much like the current legislation, it was vague and not tightly worded enough to avoid potential abuse by the HK government in suppressing political opposition. When even someone's political allies are saying something's wrong, they really should pay attention and have a rethink, rather than assume opposition is because of prejudice or hatred.

As for the Democratic Party, you seem to be implying that the only way to get the CCP's trust was to ensure that the only mainstream parties in HK were overtly pro-CCP. That's like a parent saying "you're free to decide what after-school hobby you do, so long as it's what I want you to do".

Sure, Martin Lee didn't trust the CCP early on and he generally thinks China would be better served by improving its human rights and political freedoms. But that isn't anti-China or even necessarily anti-CCP - it's a difference of opinion of China's political future. If the CCP thinks anyone who talks about a future where China has a gentler and more open political system is their enemy, they're being irrational.

Also, arguably it served CCP interests to have a central pro-democratic party like the Democratic Party rather than lots of parties potentially demanding different (and radical) policies. Don't forget, the DP negotiated with Beijing in good faith and agreed to the very limited 2010 HK political reforms, despite the fact it annoyed many of their supporters, because it was willing to trust the CCP and wanted to show it was an honest stakeholder.

The 2010 reform package passing should have shown the CCP that it could work with the DP. But instead of taking the goodwill offered by the DP, the CCP appeared to congratulate itself that it had "split" the pan-democratic camp and conclude it was "winning" an imaginary battle in Hong Kong. It then offered the joke of reformed Chief Executive elections where it would get to pick the candidates, presumably thinking it could split the pan-democrats again and make them fight amongst themselves, whilst its supporters could keep ruling HK. The plan backfired.

Again, rather than sit down and wonder if it had made a bad decision by offering something that was so bad it eventually failed, the CCP doubled-down and blamed everyone but itself.

I'm going to just bold that part.
If you are asking the Chinese government to trust to give HK greater autonomy when there are politicians in HK that openly express a "difference in opinion" for China's political future and the CCP overall, then there is frankly a massive chasm in understanding in terms of what the central government would consider to be sufficiently trustworthy to grant greater political autonomy.




In the mind of the CCP, one wealthy HK person being in support of the pro-democratic faction and owning a newspaper outweighs all of his peers who are pro-CCP and also own newspapers/media outlets and have votes via the Functional Constituencies? Really?

We're returning to the scenario that the only way to get trust from the CCP is to be totally loyal and just do what it wants.

There's a difference between being "pro-CCP" and "anti-CCP" and "saying nothing".

If you wanted Beijing to trust Hong Kong's politicians with granting them greater political autonomy, then having those politicians and their supporting call for political change on the mainland, criticizing the CCP, lobbying and doing photo ops with foreign government leaders, is not the way to do it.

Realistically I'm not saying all of HK's politicians needed to be card carrying members of the CCP -- but they could have simply not commented on anything that they must have known the CCP would consider to be sensitive. If they really wanted political autonomy from Beijing, that would've been the realistic thing to do.

But no, instead these politicians chose the path of essentially throwing the middle finger off the central government in a consistently more jarring fashion over the years from the handover across the decades to now, and there is genuine confusion or concern as to why Beijing was unwilling to grant them greater political autonomy???

Again, those politicians have a right to express their opinions on Beijing and the central government, and China, fine.
However expecting China to trust HK enough to grant them the political autonomy and specifically the degree of "universal suffrage" they were envisioning in that context is absolutely laughable.



HK's international support doesn't make up for the vast disparity in power, not least given how proudly the CCP (and people on this thread) have paraded support for China's position from other countries. (I mean, if you want to tell those other forum members that the support from countries like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela doesn't mean anything, go right ahead.)

The CCP hasn't moderated its recent policies one iota despite international pressure. It simply doesn't care what other countries think. Every time it has suffered some sort of reversal in Hong Kong, it has gone away, sulked and come back with something that is even more objectionable than what it proposed last time. The CCP is not a victim.

China, Chinese people, and the people living in Hong Kong who just want to live their lives are the victims -- victims of media outlets, the local education system and some local politicians who have promoted such virulent ideologies against the Chinese government and Chinese people that the violence and destabilization, with the signal boosting and promotion from foreign media and support from foreign governments whether through direct funding or through rhetorical support or both.

Obviously the Chinese government has stood firm and refused to fold despite the pressure.
 

KYli

Brigadier
The Liberal Party usually votes for CCP candidates during the Chief Executive elections and usually with the other pro-Beijing parties in the HK assembly. It is pro-CCP. Its members just have brains and don't always follow instructions from Beijing.

Both founder Allen Lee and former Chairman James Tien were dissociated by the Beijing government. Liberal party is pro-Business and conservative that only concern about its interests and is run by a bunches of opportunists. In 2012 HK Chief Executive election, Liberal party supported Henry Tang. In 2017 HK Chief Executive election, the Liberals were split between Carrie Lam and John Tsang. Liberals also opposed minimum wage, maternity leave etc. All issues that HK government wanted to pass.


Article 23 is a principle, not a law. If it was a law the CCP wouldn't have had any reason to introduce the new security legislation.
What you wrote have nothing to do with the fact that Martin Lee has now openly supported the Article 23 in 2003 form and wished it has been passed.


What does that have to do with anything? I can remember Chinese nationalists regularly calling the KMT their best friends (at least whenever Taiwan comes up) and stuff like "when China is unified the KMT can come to the mainland to be the Opposition". But now being the son of someone in the KMT puts you under suspicion? Right.

You said that those oppositions are not even anti-CCP. KMT members and associates are anti-CCP. Do I need to quote you exact words for you? Or you don't even have the gut to admit a simple fact that many oppositions are anti-CCP. Many oppositions probably have no problem to admit themselves that they are anti-CCP.



HK was supposed to be an independent politcal entity - at least in the context of autonomy for non-international issues.
That's completely false. At the very beginning, HK wasn't an independent political entity. There were no negotiation between Hong Kong and China. There is only a negotiation between China and British on the issue of handover. Everything in HK including the mini-law is adopted and granted by the National People's Congress. Stop lying.

This sounds an awful lot like before the handover. If you'd bothered to read my post, you'll have noticed the bit where the Democratic Party negotiated in good faith with the CCP after 1997.
You still are dodging the fact that the leader of DP beg the last governor to use his authoritarian power to make laws. It seems obvious that Martin Lee has no regard and doesn't give much of thought about Liberty, Freedom, rule of laws, and universal suffrage.


Resigned as a legislator in 2004. He didn't make the Democratic Party vote for the reform package, even if he supported it.

Stop lying. As one of the founders of DP, Szeto Wah is very influential. Don't try to distort facts by using irrelevant stuffs.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Meanwhile, the Democratic Party leaders began to negotiate with the Beijing authorities and a revised proposal suggested by Szeto Wah was accepted by Beijing.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Szeto Wah attended the party meeting after chemotherapy raised support of the revised proposal, stating that it was better to have the increase of five directly elected seats, five functional constituency seats but almost directly elected and the abolition of the appointed District Council seats than nothing.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


After the Democratic Party voted for the revised package, the Democratic Party and Szeto Wah received harsh criticisms from its former allies and supporters, condemning them for betraying democracy and the Hong Kong people. "Longhair"
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in a protest in front of the PTU headquarters said Szeto Wah had his cancer got into his brain.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
In the following
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Szeto on his wheelchair also received criticisms from his supporters, saying that the "Democratic Party sold out Hong Kong people." In response, Szeto argued, "Sold out? How much for selling out? ... Are you pig or dog? Can you be sold out?"



Nice strawman. I didn't claim no foreign countries had taken an interest in Hong Kong. The issue is the disparity in power between the CCP and the common people in HK.

The CCP has always had all the legal and security power in Hong Kong, either directly or indirectly. They and their cronies in the city have banned non-violent protests against the Chinese anthem, banned localist parties and politicians, harrassed other pan-democratic figures, kidnapped booksellers, banned protests in the city, tried indoctrinating children with pro-CCP propaganda and protected the HK police over complaints of violence. Now they've just decided to make it illegal to say mean things about the CCP and its allies in HK.

The little support a number of protesters have received is a drop in the ocean in comparison.

Also, before you try to claim that most HK people support the CCP, I draw your attention to the fact that the pro-Beijing parties have never held a majority of seats in the the HK assembly from the geographic constituences. Not once.

Sometimes I think that's the real reason the CCP won't allow proper electoral reform in Hong Kong, because it's mad a majority of HKers refuse to vote for its proxies.

You make it sounds like Color Revolution is a none issue. What are you smoking? Are you trying to say that China and Hong Kong should be equal.

Another childish ramblings. How about those 10 years old kids that were brainwashed to be sent in the front line of riots. How about using mentally retarded people and recruiting them and brainwahed them to use them in the front of riots. How about beating Mainland Chinese half to death just because they speak Mandarin. How are setting a man on fire just because he spoke out against violent. How about harassing HK citizens at their home, jobs, apartments, friends, family. Burning stores that don't support the rioters. How about teachers that harass little kids in kindergarten just because their dads are a cop. How about beating up a kids in school and asking older kids to beat up a kid just because his/her dad is a cop. Those rioters and their supporters that refuse to admit crimes and atrocities that they have done are disgusting.

Oh please, I have said many times that the pro-Beijing got 45% of the votes at their best performance. Another immature rambling. CCP obviously knew the simple and obvious fact that many Hong Kongers are descendants of anti-ccp who left China and all these years of colonial rules of course would produce many pro-West cronies.
 
Last edited:

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I discussed with friends a while ago that Bay Area integration should in theory should help alleviate the housing costs, possibly even boost the economy by increasing other spending. An HSR line is already built. I believe “Return Home” permits are already smart card enabled and only require tap to pass through checkpoint. If you could get from HK central business district to a ML residential district in 45 minutes, it would be true progress. Though the line as built currently does not terminate in ideal areas.

However, it is precisely the West Express Rail Link saga that doesn’t have me optimistic. It is a pure infrastructure project, but it was interrupted and hijacked into a political football. “Mainland border officials!” What a joke, Canada has had US CBP stationed in major airports for 40 years, no one pretends they will enforce US drug laws or whatever. Just a talking point fed to the traitor side by their foreign masters.


I am using such invective to describe the activity from my own personal experience.
Let me preface this that I am not living in HK, so maybe the true locals know better.

First here is an article for some background
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is a very practical example of how the discourse is totally politically poisoned (not unlike coronavirus in the US).

The reality:
Since the handover, the cross border traffic has grown so much that MTR built a second cross border spur line at Lok Ma Chau to supplement Lo Wu (The original crossing point)

At Lo Wu, you must disembark, cross customs control on foot, then you can proceed to Shenzhen metro trains.

Just to give an idea of how busy it can get during rush hour, any stations downline from either Lo Wu or Lok Ma Chau, you can be caught in a human traffic jam for 45 minutes, just trying to board a train.

The point of having mainland customs clearance on the HK side for the express rail link is to provide seamless connection once you have boarded the train. This is the EXPRESS part. It is meant to be especially attractive for businesspeople. You can take the train all the way to GZ. Also popular is to transfer at SZ to go to Xiamen. All of this can be done in less time than taking a flight when including security check time.

This kind of arrangement is not unusual, at least not for Canadians. Major Canadian airports have had US customs clearance for over 40 years for a similar reason (easy to connect to flights at US airports).

So why was this a political issue at all? Why did Joshua Wong get involved? A guy who meets with Tom KKKotton who has openly called China the “enemy of the United States”.

I don’t want to get back into the debate above, but I will leave this for anyone interested to judge for themselves.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I watching CNN and something strange happened. They had their reporter on the frontlines of "protests" live in Hong Kong where the reporter was acting they were on the verge of being overrun and attacked by police and all that happened was a policeman unrolled tape to mark off where the media was not allowed to cross. CNN was trying to stage it and make it look like Minneapolis.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
I watching CNN and something strange happened. They had their reporter on the frontlines of "protests" live in Hong Kong where the reporter was acting they were on the verge of being overrun and attacked by police and all that happened was a policeman unrolled tape to mark off where the media was not allowed to cross. CNN was trying to stage it and make it look like Minneapolis.
Perhaps the TV channel is trying a different form of comedic relief as Trump " is not cutting it anymore"
 
Top