Hong-Kong Protests

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member
Registered Member
Now that the NatSec law is in place, I think it would be a good time to purge and rebuild the entire education system.

New textbooks, New teachers and new administrators. The West is going to foot the bill as they will absorb all the fellow travellers in HK.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
When Hong Kong officials and media entities and activists with stated goals of either seeking greater political autonomy or challenging the central government's authority and court and cooperate with foreign government officials? Is that not considered a national security threat?

Which HK officials? The HK government and its officials have always been pro-CCP.

Similarly, which "media entities" and "activists" are you talking about - and when? Dates are important. The CCP doesn't have a time machine and couldn't know what would happen from 2018 to 2020.

I think we might have differing views on who the "victims" of all this are...

A country of 1.4 billion people with the second largest economy in the world in a power play against civilians in a city of 7 million, where the government has always been pro-CCP and much of the media is owned by pro-CCP businessmen, and which is legally a part of said big country. You're going to struggle to demonstrate how the former is a victim given the ludicrous disparity of power.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Which HK officials? The HK government and its officials have always been pro-CCP.

Similarly, which "media entities" and "activists" are you talking about - and when? Dates are important. The CCP doesn't have a time machine and couldn't know what would happen from 2018 to 2020.

Martin Lee and his associates are the most obvious originals in terms of their opposition to Beijing, and before the handover of HK back to China his lobbying efforts abroad including in the US weren't exactly innocuous.
The party he founded and its successors and allies, as well as many of those who opposed the 2003 national security were all the obvious warning signs Beijing needed. The individuals prior to, during and after the handover whose consistent stance towards China was to seek to make it (i.e.: the mainland proper) more "democratic" and who throughout the years have organized vigils over Tiananmen are all signalling their opposition to the central government and its authority on the mainland as well.
You cannot tell me that such groups and individuals are seen as "pro-CCP" when many of them have held legco positions, and that the central government would think that it would be reasonable to give the HK government greater autonomy when they are outright expressing a challenge to the central government for their authority in the China mainland proper.

As for media entities, obviously I'm referring to Jimmy Lai.


Edit: keep in mind, I'm not saying that the HK government officials cannot or somehow should not oppose Beijing on various issues including say, commemorating Tiananmen or arguing for greater freedoms and democracy on the mainland etc, nor am I saying that they weren't allowed to try and lobby the US government with respect to matters pertaining to HK or China.
But what I am saying is that if their goal was to want to try and convince Beijing that they could trust HK politicians to not challenge China on issues the CCP cared about if HK was granted greater autonomy, then they did a pretty poor job of it.



A country of 1.4 billion people with the second largest economy in the world in a power play against civilians in a city of 7 million, where the government has always been pro-CCP and much of the media is owned by pro-CCP businessmen, and which is legally a part of said big country. You're going to struggle to demonstrate how the former is a victim given the ludicrous disparity of power.

If China had not been as restrained as it has been and if Hong Kong's movement did not have all of the political and media support of many of the world's other leading powers providing rhetorical support out of hostility to China, then I might agree with you.


Fundamentally the differences held in this discussion -- and frankly the whole issue of HK in general -- is what is seen as "reasonable" in terms of the actions taken and not taken by the two opposing sides.
Whether it's brutality by police versus brutality by protesters, to the validity of the national security law, to what 1C2S is about -- there is basically no grounds for agreement.
 
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SimaQian

Junior Member
Registered Member
The NSL is very effective here in Hong Kong. People are starting to behave.

Starting on day 1,

1.) most restaurants that patronizes those protesters, starting to remove those so called "Lennon walls" or anything related to protests

2.) even those local political parties associated with democracy movements disbanded themselves; they are running away

3.) even facebook posts for those who supported are now deleted.

Well I hope the NSL agents will go after the financiers/backers/instigators behind those protests.
All of them should be destroyed and brought to justice.
 

getready

Senior Member
The NSL is very effective here in Hong Kong. People are starting to behave.

Starting on day 1,

1.) most restaurants that patronizes those protesters, starting to remove those so called "Lennon walls" or anything related to protests

2.) even those local political parties associated with democracy movements disbanded themselves; they are running away

3.) even facebook posts for those who supported are now deleted.

Well I hope the NSL agents will go after the financiers/backers/instigators behind those protests.
All of them should be destroyed and brought to justice.
This is very good news. Hopefully justice can be achieved and peace return
 

getready

Senior Member
Now that the NatSec law is in place, I think it would be a good time to purge and rebuild the entire education system.

New textbooks, New teachers and new administrators. The West is going to foot the bill as they will absorb all the fellow travellers in HK.
This is of most important. The education need a whole shuffle. Traitor Educators need to swiftly removed toa save whole new generation from further being traitors
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Honestly speaking, what I can sum up from the discussion in this thread can be described using an analogy.

A stubborn donkey that was kidnapped when it was a calf had been sold back to its original owner by the abusive kidnapper. The donkey seems pretty stupid because of the abuse, and when it senses an inkling of goodwill from its original owner, like a carrot, for example, it takes that for granted and then demands more. Now, the original owner wants the donkey back not just because it was his, but also because he thought it can work, hence valuable. Seeing the donkey being stubborn and rebellious, the original owner thought it was because it had PTSD from the kidnapper's abuse and patiently wait for the donkey to come to its senses. However, the donkey didn't appreciate the goodwill, demands more food, don't want to work, and then tries to escape. It even calls miserably whenever the kidnapper passed by as if to accuse the owner of animal abuse.

By then, the original owner had enough of this nonsense and bring out the butcher knife, thinking if the damn donkey can't work, at least he can eat it. Suddenly, the donkey behaves extremely well and become very sensible. The owner now realizes that this darn thing had taken advantage of his goodwill and only the butcher knife can rein it back.

For those who took your time to read my opinion piece, who is the donkey, the kidnapper, and the owner? I think everyone knows ;)
 

Mr T

Senior Member
The party he founded and its successors and allies, as well as many of those who opposed the 2003 national security were all the obvious warning signs Beijing needed.

Even pro-CCP politicians like those in the Liberal Party opposed the 2003 national security law. The problem was that, much like the current legislation, it was vague and not tightly worded enough to avoid potential abuse by the HK government in suppressing political opposition. When even someone's political allies are saying something's wrong, they really should pay attention and have a rethink, rather than assume opposition is because of prejudice or hatred.

As for the Democratic Party, you seem to be implying that the only way to get the CCP's trust was to ensure that the only mainstream parties in HK were overtly pro-CCP. That's like a parent saying "you're free to decide what after-school hobby you do, so long as it's what I want you to do".

Sure, Martin Lee didn't trust the CCP early on and he generally thinks China would be better served by improving its human rights and political freedoms. But that isn't anti-China or even necessarily anti-CCP - it's a difference of opinion of China's political future. If the CCP thinks anyone who talks about a future where China has a gentler and more open political system is their enemy, they're being irrational.

Also, arguably it served CCP interests to have a central pro-democratic party like the Democratic Party rather than lots of parties potentially demanding different (and radical) policies. Don't forget, the DP negotiated with Beijing in good faith and agreed to the very limited 2010 HK political reforms, despite the fact it annoyed many of their supporters, because it was willing to trust the CCP and wanted to show it was an honest stakeholder.

The 2010 reform package passing should have shown the CCP that it could work with the DP. But instead of taking the goodwill offered by the DP, the CCP appeared to congratulate itself that it had "split" the pan-democratic camp and conclude it was "winning" an imaginary battle in Hong Kong. It then offered the joke of reformed Chief Executive elections where it would get to pick the candidates, presumably thinking it could split the pan-democrats again and make them fight amongst themselves, whilst its supporters could keep ruling HK. The plan backfired.

Again, rather than sit down and wonder if it had made a bad decision by offering something that was so bad it eventually failed, the CCP doubled-down and blamed everyone but itself.

As for media entities, obviously I'm referring to Jimmy Lai.

In the mind of the CCP, one wealthy HK person being in support of the pro-democratic faction and owning a newspaper outweighs all of his peers who are pro-CCP and also own newspapers/media outlets and have votes via the Functional Constituencies? Really?

We're returning to the scenario that the only way to get trust from the CCP is to be totally loyal and just do what it wants.

If China had not been as restrained as it has been and if Hong Kong's movement did not have all of the political and media support of many of the world's other leading powers providing rhetorical support out of hostility to China, then I might agree with you.

HK's international support doesn't make up for the vast disparity in power, not least given how proudly the CCP (and people on this thread) have paraded support for China's position from other countries. (I mean, if you want to tell those other forum members that the support from countries like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela doesn't mean anything, go right ahead.)

The CCP hasn't moderated its recent policies one iota despite international pressure. It simply doesn't care what other countries think. Every time it has suffered some sort of reversal in Hong Kong, it has gone away, sulked and come back with something that is even more objectionable than what it proposed last time. The CCP is not a victim.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Even pro-CCP politicians like those in the Liberal Party opposed the 2003 national security law. The problem was that, much like the current legislation, it was vague and not tightly worded enough to avoid potential abuse by the HK government in suppressing political opposition. When even someone's political allies are saying something's wrong, they really should pay attention and have a rethink, rather than assume opposition is because of prejudice or hatred.

Lie. Liberal Party is pro-Business not pro-CCP. Liberal Party has flip flop so many times that both the Pro-Beijing camp and Pro-Dem camp don't trust them.

And Martin Lee thinks 2003 article 23 is a very good law and should have been passed. Are you are trying to say Martin Lee doesn't know better.

Sure, Martin Lee didn't trust the CCP early on and he generally thinks China would be better served by improving its human rights and political freedoms. But that isn't anti-China or even necessarily anti-CCP - it's a difference of opinion of China's political future. If the CCP thinks anyone who talks about a future where China has a gentler and more open political system is their enemy, they're being irrational.
Lie. A son of Kuomintang Lieutenant General that dedicated most of his life to undermine and overthrow CCP.
Let me quote some of his speech.

" 赞赏美国国会通过的香港法案,这样就使视香港为独立政治实体。"
Appreciate the Hong Kong bill passed by the US Congress, which makes Hong Kong an independent political entity.

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作为世界民主的大旗手,
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作为我们香港的
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,应該站出来抵抗北京的欺壓和凌辱,最好的起点便是说服最后一任港督
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,运用其近乎独裁的权力,加强民主体制和保护人权,彭定康既然拥有英国殖民地法律的手段,就必须推进和建立这些制度。
The United States, as the big bearer of world democracy, and the United Kingdom, as our motherland, should stand up to resist bullying and insults by Beijing. The best starting point is to persuade the last governor, Patten, to use his near-authoritarian power to strengthen the democratic system In order to protect human rights, Patten, who possesses the means of British colonial law, must promote and establish these systems.

Also, arguably it served CCP interests to have a central pro-democratic party like the Democratic Party rather than lots of parties potentially demanding different (and radical) policies. Don't forget, the DP negotiated with Beijing in good faith and agreed to the very limited 2010 HK political reforms, despite the fact it annoyed many of their supporters, because it was willing to trust the CCP and wanted to show it was an honest stakeholder.

The 2010 reform package passing should have shown the CCP that it could work with the DP. But instead of taking the goodwill offered by the DP, the CCP appeared to congratulate itself that it had "split" the pan-democratic camp and conclude it was "winning" an imaginary battle in Hong Kong. It then offered the joke of reformed Chief Executive elections where it would get to pick the candidates, presumably thinking it could split the pan-democrats again and make them fight amongst themselves, whilst its supporters could keep ruling HK. The plan backfired.

Again, rather than sit down and wonder if it had made a bad decision by offering something that was so bad it eventually failed, the CCP doubled-down and blamed everyone but itself.

Lie. Szeto Wah was alive back as a true politician he understands that you need to compromise in order to get things done. Therefore, Szeto Wah stared down the radical elements within the DP and rallied the support of moderate within DP to support the political reforms. Ever since Szeto Wah dead, radicals have taken over DP and moderates have left or ostracized.

HK's international support doesn't make up for the vast disparity in power, not least given how proudly the CCP (and people on this thread) have paraded support for China's position from other countries. (I mean, if you want to tell those other forum members that the support from countries like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela doesn't mean anything, go right ahead.)
Lie. Western countries have directly interfered with HK affair including financial and intelligent support which is defined as "Color Revolution." Many of radical HK teenagers were sent to camps in Taiwan for training of tactics and strategies and organization of protests including some weapon training. Don't try to lie your way out of this.
 
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