Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Brumby

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I agreed with you there, that's the thing I don't get about. Hong Kongers don't have anything to be snobby about in the first place.:mad::confused:

You have to be a Chinese to understand this. Historically, Hong Kongers generally consider mainland and overseas Chinese to be inferior. I believe this is due to the fact that at least in the past on an economic scale, HK Chinese were ahead of the rest. Just some kind of competitive thing going on within the Chinese community.
 
It's not easy in HK to arrange any general strike because while in other places the union will cover the pay, there's no such net in HK. For most of us, if we strike we don't get pay, simple as that. Now let's see if those boys and girls pay for our wages with their pocket money!

So today, we see people get up to work 2 hours ahead of usual, to make up for any contingency in traffic. We all try to keep up the semblance of order, while those boys and girls disrupt it to fulfil their revolutionary fantasy.

The stock market reacted but that's within expectation, it's no crash. If there's a 1000 points evaporated by the day's end, then yes; more than 1000 points then it'd be a bad crash.

And as it seems Beijing isn't in that terrible of a hurry to resolve this, though news of this has been blocked in Mainland China. If anything, those insurgents won't come out any new tricks beyond what they already doing...anything "new" will cross into the "violence" threshold.

It's worth to note that this so-called "Umbrella Revolution" has all the characteristics of Coloured Revolution, including the tireless demonizing of the police over the last few years. Given the local media's lopsided leaning on the side of the insurgents, take their posts with a huge pinch of salt if I were you. Especially in the last few months there're exposures concerning how many of the anti-government politicians are taking money - via proxy - from the Uncle Sam, and they never declared as per rules & regulations requires them to as legislators.

It's especially ridiculous when they say the use of CS gas as "shockingly violent"...well they really need to look at the US, like Ferguson, MO recently...you know what? If Beijing sent in PLA to use LD2000 to "mow the lawn" then yes it'd qualify. But we know better.

You're from HK. You should know the people has never been exposed to this stuff since the 60s. By HK standards, it's excessive, not to mention you have students 2 days earlier who are pepper sprayed after having their hands put up.

And whatever pinch of salt you're taking, all I know is most of the things I'm receiving are from first-hand accounts.

Also, the pan-democrats were arrested very early on and the rest of the movement since was spearheaded by the street folks. Some even said the 3 OC starters' jobs are done.
 
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Re: Chinese Daily Photos 2014!

Overwhelming evidence show large protesting groups aren't predictable and situations could turn ugly at the drop of a hat. Responsible authorities need to stay on top of it and be prepared to do whatever it's necessary to restore order if groups of peaceful protesters turn into lawless mobs. That's why HK and PRC authorities need to coordinate and take measured steps to manage the situation and escalate as needed. But, let's have no delusions of what happens when mobs rule the streets, and civil authorities that pussyfoot with lawlessness get what they deserve.

Blackstone if you spend just 2 hours looking at what's happening, you will see the fears you've expressed hasn't really happened. The folks kept telling one another to act civil so there won't be reasons from the opposition to say we are all over the place or criticize
 
That age group also happens to be the easiest to manipulate. Their needs of finding social acceptance among their peers discourages any sort of independent thinking.

The parents permitted them, and even the school boards and university deans permitted it. Even the teacher's foundation supported these movement from the beginning days when high school students decided to step into the streets, to now where teachers went on strike in protest of what the police are doing. I spoke to a math tutor today and asked his thoughts, without voicing mine first. He's also in supportive of what's happening.


People in Hong Kong have been conditioning themselves to oppose anything that is China for the past two decades, while turning a blind eye to China's accomplishments from the same time period. HK people's constant needs of bringing up 1989 to instill fear in the territory is your classical definition of propaganda, which also shows these people's mind set are still stuck in a different era. Their opposition to a more balanced view of China in HK's education system is a sign of their intolerance to views other than their own.



I am glad you recognize this.


China has the guaranteed rights of calling the last shot in HK. This is written in HK's constitution. The current argument for more democracy in HK is fallacious to begin with, because it is based on quoting a few characters out of an entire article from the constitution.





China has promised to not intervene in HK's political affairs, yet somehow the NPC can say how HK can have its democracy?


Why did police fire tear gas? Because people tried to lay siege the government headquarter, as well as trying to hold the entire territory hostage. If people don't want to get hurt, then they should not be participating in unreasonable actions.
Civic Square is public space. They decided to barricade it up, and that was what spurred a group to climb inside. And that's not even about the tear gas yet. The tear gas were deployed at the main roads for no reason, without provocation. Everyone watched it with their own eyes. They even fired tear gas onto occupied bridges for no reason. A CNN crew was reporting what's going on when a tear gas was then shot into the crowd. A lot of the protest were filmed with live footage and streaming, and it's these tear gas which caused more people to go into the streets. I even showed a picture earlier of before and after
 
Interesting post, Franklin. You're right that economic anxiety has played a large role in these protests. Hong Kong's economy has boomed since 1997. But the perception among a large part of the city is the benefits have flowed to a small group of tycoons rather than them.

However, consider that students, even secondary and high school students, are playing a leading role in the current protests. They are too young to remember what things were like before 1997, or worry about inflation or jobs or housing prices. Sure they hear about those things from their parents, teachers, and the news but it's not something they've experienced, and we know that personal experience is the most powerful motivation.

There's a sense that Hong Kong is under threat by the PRC. Hong Kongers genuinely feel they are different from the PRC culturally, politically, economically, linguistically, and they want to keep it that way. Occupy Central cite forcing HK to go into debt to fund the high speed rail link and the effort to put pro-communist propaganda into schools are examples of Beijing encroaching on HK.

In my opinion these threats are exaggerated. Beijing has done a remarkable job in staying hands-off in HK since 1997. The PLA garrison is invisible and the Chief Executives have continued the policies of the pre-1997 governors. They even introduced a minimum wage which the left has wanted for a long time. Unemployment has been low, the stock market has boomed, and the currency has been stable. Freedoms of the press, religion, and demonstration (up to now, remember the annual Tiannamen Square Massacre memorials?) have been unaffected by the handover. The other economic issues like rising cost of living are to economic policies, or lack of them, from the Hong Kong government rather than anything Beijing is telling HK.

Still, that is an argument for more democracy in HK. As long as Beijing plays a strong role in choosing the Chief Executive, HKers will fear more Beijing meddling. Beijing's policy can change. Just because they've been hands off on HK up to 2014 doesn't mean they always will be. Officially-recognized true democracy is a both guarantee against future Beijing meddling and a way to solve current economic problems. That's why HKers are in the streets this week.

To all those who say the police should immediately crack down on the demonstrations, would you feel the same with the 1919 May 4 Movement in Beijing? How about when Russians protested against the Tsar in March 1917 and the Tsar ordered his soldiers to open fire? How about when gangsters suppressed the communist uprising in Shanghai in 1927? How about when Iranians protested the Shah in 1979 and the Shah ordered his soldiers to open fire? How about South Korean union workers protested the South Korean military dictator in the 1980s?

Public demonstrations and civil disobedience are the peaceful tools of last resort for mass movements in un-democratic societies. In lieu of free and fair elections they are the only way for a large part of the population to show their strength and effect change. The only thing left after that is armed revolt.

Public demonstrations played a huge role in the decolonization of India, Algeria, and other countries. It's ironic to see communists and their apologists preaching the law and order gospel of the regimes they overthrew when they were revolutionaries not so long ago, and agitated for the right of the people to strike and protest. It seems like communists are for the right to protest when it is they who are protesting, but against it when it is someone else.

When do large demonstrations turn violent? Usually when the police and/or army attack them and people are forced to run and defend themselves. Tear gas, pepper spray, and batons are violence and they hurt people. Shooting a tear gas grenade into a ground is extremely dangerous because it can cause a stampede which can crush to death anyone who trips and falls. If you don't want people to get hurt, don't use those weapons. Sometimes in anti-globalization, anti-capitalism protests in the West there are anarchists who start smashing shops but Hong Kong does not have that problem.

Thanks for understanding from our side of the story and how we felt. A lot of us have been saying, we've got nothing to lose. At $18,000/month for $5million housing, there's also basically nothing that's even guaranteed for us anymore. There's a reason even Montreal students were taking the streets years back. We know what it's like, because we're the group feeling the full blunt of these unsustainable conditions for our living.
 

Blitzo

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@ air superiority

"China has promised to not intervene in HK's political affairs, yet somehow the NPC can say how HK can have its democracy?"

Isn't this the crux of the issue? There are differing interpretations of "intervention".
But at the end of the day, HK's leaders will be accountable to the NPC otherwise what you have is de facto independence.

The fact that China is not directly intervening into these political demonstrations (and ones in the past) show that it is willing to tolerate dissent and political movements in HK which differ to its own.

I've repeated similar questions in my last few posts: do any of the protesters expect beijing to allow democracy without a degree of check or accountability to the central government? If so, then they're going to be in for a long, long wait.
They would have been better off making more moderate and specific demands instead of the equivalent of using a sledgehammer to solve a pathology that needed to be dealt with through a scalpel.
 
No doubt that the economic factors are the primary factors driving this, but it is underpinned by an prevalent social attitude.

It is a sad fact (one I know only too well from experience) that many Hong Kongers have an snobby view of themselves with regard to mainlanders. They are in fact, in many ways, an Insular Island people by attitude.

Maybe forty or fifty years ago, this attitude may have been justified and I would have expected to see it as prevalent in the respective generations. It is disappointing therefore to see that many of the young are no better today.

I suppose in many respects, this is the expression of the erosion of HK confidence in their superiority, mainly through the daily demonstration of the fact that this attitude is increasingly unjustified and indeed some parts of the mainland will be able to look down on them in exactly the same way.
Seen from that perspective, this ill is a problem that's time has come and a fang that needs to be pulled.

On the other side though, I also know full well that commitment to the cause may not be as solid as it may at first appear. When I was that age I often went to demo/protest events. Not because I cared passionately about any cause (most of the time I did not have a clue) I went because it was fun, a good party and damn good way to meet and pick up girls. I would guess a lot of kids are mainly there for that and of course to be seen to be there ;)

I'll respond to this one when I wake up. Was gonna reply but too tired to continue.
 
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

A lot of expatriates left Hong Kong after the handover because of the scary predictions Hong Kongers were putting out there like tanks rolling and people being shot in the streets as China took over. It was until those predictions turned out to be wrong expatriates started returning.

Oh yea that. That's pretty much what everyone back then feared. Just please don't think we're in our wishful fantasy land. Rather that's the amount of fear and concerns we had of the CCP back then.
 
Re: Chinese General news resource thread

This whole situation happening in Hong Kong is just to deflect away from the problems of what colonialism caused in this world. When you see those Hong Kongers waving British flags, they're telling the world colonialism wasn't as evil as advertised. It was in fact preferable. Why do you think you see people saying slavery was best thing to ever happen to Africans. What are they looking as a reference? The conditions caused by colonialism in the first place. There was colonialism before slavery.

Read all the stories about China especially after the 2008 Western financial crisis. It's all about how horrible in general China is a place to live. Why is that? Because China faired better than Western countries after 2008. That put it out there whether it was true or not that China might have a better system and that could cause a rebellion of sorts to change the system that enriches and protects the top even at hard times. There was never a viable challenger to the Western system. Remember how they said if the US sneezes every other country catches a cold? The 2008 financial crisis... China defied that belief and that scared them. That's why everything now is about how horrible China is a place to live. The news of Alibaba scares them. A company that the literal vast majority of Western consumers never heard of being the biggest IPO ever? It doesn't need them to be successful. And Wall Street is scared because in the near future this could mean tons of money going to Chinese companies not Western ones. That's as scary as China not catching anything when the US sneezes. So expect a lot of bashing in the long run.

Barely anyone waves the colonial flag these days (a bunch of angry teenagers and some angry adults did so at some point), and haven't heard of this happening in this movement. Also no it's not to advertise colonialism. It's just a lot of people missed the old days when we felt things were better, although most people were referring to Chris Patten era. People ain't talking about the British now in this movement other than ask them to review the Sino-British Declaration.

And also, people out there are saying now, that HK can't go back to British rule, but we must progress forward.
 
From WSJ...

"Few police and almost none wearing riot gear were seen near the protesters, who were inundated with food, water and protective gear by supporters. There appeared to be no central organizing authority. "If I must name a leader of the movement, it is Hong Kong itself," said Amy Wong, a university student who said she joined protests out of anger at the tactics used by police."

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The so-called original organizers of OC were arrested quickly and early in the beginning. The rest of the movement that you're seeing now is literally the HK public in the streets.

Even the lower SEC groups like truck drivers and those people are supplying drinks and things. Everything is done grassroots level and by the public now bonded as a community as a whole
 
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