Future PLA strategic procurement priorities

Blitzo

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If this is the maximal ability for China to strike the US then China will always be at a disadvantage in the potential for incurring civilian causalities, general infrastructure damage, production facilities of all kinds, etc. China will be at the mercy of the US while the reverse will be true at orders of magnitude less destruction at best. China could dominate a war and absolutely crush the US while incurring literally 1000x more overall damage, with the US completely untouched and only American bases in ruins, yet China is set back years or decades and the US is set back (economically, industrially, etc.) none.

There seems to be one real solution (short of a technology that negates distance as a factor completely): China establishing basing near the US...

What about Cuba and Venezuela? Establishing large numbers of units there would give China a capability approximately equal to current American force projection from Japan and the Korean peninsula (assuming Koreans ever give America permission to use their country for that purpose which I don't think is guaranteed).

You could put regular Americans at the implied mercy of Chinese forces, American infrastructure of all types, weapon production facilities, residential communities with accidental blowback from slightly inaccurate strikes and the like. Same things China would be confronted with.

Until that time, China will always be at the mercy of incurring more damage than is even possible for America to incur. That is a large and humiliating deficit that must be reduced significantly. At least I hope that's how Chinese leadership see it and are only biding their time now waiting to reach a sufficient threshold of conventional capability and volume of production before setting out on base building.

Global basing options is primarily a geopolitical question and not a military one.

Whatever the PLA may or may not desire, a secure and global string of bases is not likely in the medium term horizon. Make of that what you will in terms of strategy and priorities.
 

Blitzo

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I don't see that as the only or even the most likely course of events. If one side sees it's going to lose conventionally, it has two options:
A) escalating to nuclear - which has a high likelihood of escalating so much that everyone loses hard. Which involves the active side losing 50% of its population and 90% of its economy/industry/tech base.
or B) saying "ok, you win" and backing down. If it does that, it will lose a few percent of its population and some more percent of its economy/industry/tech base.

Fundamentally I think this depends on the relative capability of each side's nuclear weapons.

If the losing side really wants to cut their losses and send the entire world to oblivion -- that is to say, to escalate sufficiently such that the two primary sides involved in the conflict both become equally devastated -- that depends on the size and credibility of their nuclear arsenal to begin with.

This is all assuming that a losing side deems that to be a worthy political decision of course, where it wants both sides to be condemned to a loss rather than ending in a situation where they lose more than the other side and have to try and climb back from behind once peace returns.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
A few that were mentioned were:

1. High speed armed recon due to both being able to carry a very powerful radar (larger than fighters), weapons and being stealthy simultaneously.

A JH-XX isn't fast enough nor stealthy enough.

We've seen hypersonic recon aircraft which are better suited for the recon mission


2. Tactical strike from odd directions unlike truck mounted missiles, and equal or greater ranges (since most weapons launched by truck you can also launch by air)

No matter the launch platform, you can have cruise missiles fly around and approach from any direction


3. Hitting extremely well defended targets within 2000-3000 km with organic CAP that has IR search capability.

There are few targets in this category.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
A JH-XX isn't fast enough nor stealthy enough.

We've seen hypersonic recon aircraft which are better suited for the recon mission




No matter the launch platform, you can have cruise missiles fly around and approach from any direction




There are few targets in this category.

How would you know that? Chinese industry has produced multiple LO conventional layout, supersonic capable platforms. This is a proven fact.

A hypersonic recon platform lacks persistence and is likely to require a rocket motor or airborne launch and none are stealthy. It will offer flyby information which is likely to be only snapshots. A hypothetical JH-XX in a armed recon configuration can persistently (hours, not minutes) follow a threat at long range, beaming back consistent data and not be seen.

Cruise missile + aircraft range is longer then cruise missile range. Cruise missiles hitting from odd angles requires more of their own fuel to be used.
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Every strategy is gambling.

History shows that many strategies backfire and go against the will of their creators

1Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, from the Japanese point of view, it was a rational decision based on the experience and success of the wars against China and Russia. But this time the Japanese shot themselves in the foot, their strategy didn't work.

2. Nehru used the forward policy to encroach on Chinese territory. At that time, China was isolated economically and politically by many countries. Sino-Soviet relations were divided, and China had to maintain a huge number of soldiers and military equipment in the north to defend against the Soviet Union. Compared with China, India has more advantages. But Nehru's "reasonable" decision backfired and India received the most terrible BIG-L in history. The 1962 war hit India's leadership in the face.

3. After the Korean War, the Americans learned their lesson, they decided to change their strategy, avoiding direct conflict with China, so they maintained American troops in South Vietnam, using a defensive strategy. and bombing to stop North Vietnam. This strategy did not work, it failed to protect South Vietnam and cost America more than the Korean War.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes definitely. Setting up distributed fire bases with IRBMs/HGVs and distributed small air bases with which they can operate F-35s from most definitely are viable and important targets to be capable of striking.

And if you look at the distances in the South China Seas, you're looking at a maximum of around 1900km from Hainan to potential island bases that the US has occupied. Again, you have a similar calculation between:

1. JH-XX launching 400km range JASSMs that cost $0.5M
versus
2. trucks on Hainan launching the same missiles with a 1900km range that cost $1.5M

With a notional JH-XX cost of $150M, you need to launch say 150 missiles before a JH-XX works out better.
Again, you've got the same issues with a JH-XX being shot down and higher operating costs.

---

And I just don't see the US setting up that many bases on Malaysian or Indonesian territory
So I see any contingencies here being covered comfortably covered by a combination of long-range missiles, tankers, J-20s, H-6s, H-20s, GB-11s etc



In that case I think we have differing views for the long term requirements that China has for the PLA.

The way I see it, any Taiwan contingency will be composed of two complementary, simultaneous missions and requirements:
1. The Taiwan "invasion" proper, including all of the operations needed to gain air superiority, sea control, SEAD/DEAD, amphibious assault, ground operations around Taiwan island proper and on the island itself.
2. The "deterrence" mission, which requires a massive multipronged air-naval-missile force capable of surrounding the region around Taiwan so as to preemptively meet and track any movement of aircraft and ships from outside nations that may either seek to directly intervene on behalf of Taiwan or to use military force to undermine the Chinese war effort (including blockades of SLOCs and so on). That is to say, there is a requirement to not only be capable of outright defeating a highly capable outside hostile force on even terms, but also to be capable of significantly undermining or crippling an enemy's ability to conduct a blockade at least in the overall western pacific region (that includes the SCS).

Perhaps my view of these requirements are a bit more ambitious than yours, which is why I view the proposed mission of the JH-XX in the way that I do.

All of this is growing outside the scope of the thread, therefore if you continue this further then I will move the relevant posts in a different thread.
If not, well I have said my part.

In terms of priorities and importance, I see defence of Chinese SLOCs as secondary.

And for the next 15 years at least, it's futile to divert many resources to break a US blockade on China, because US carriers will control the waters past the 2nd Island Chain anyway.

---

In comparison, the defence of the mainland China seaboard is paramount.

That includes the megacity of Shanghai which only lies 800km from the Japanese Home Islands.
South Korea is only 400km from mainland China.
They are close enough for fighters to conduct airstrikes and air superiority missions against each other

So why develop a yet another new bomber type for distant operations when a larger Y-20U tanker and J-20 fleet could simultaneously:

1. Secure Chinese cities on the mainland

2. Establish air superiority (at least temporarily) and target the ships at Korean or Japanese ports.
Korea and Japan are small resource-poor island nations which can't survive if their SLOCs are crippled by attacks on their ports. (South Korea is effectively an island because the northern border is sealed off)
In comparison, China can be largely self-sufficient as it is the same size as the continental US and also has overland trade routes

So if there is a US blockade of China (which includes US bases in the South China Seas), it's easier and better for China to push a counter-blockade of Korea and Japan.

In such a scenario, we can expect Korea to collapse first, with increasingly desperate US attempts to prevent this.

But this mission does mean the Chinese Air Force taking on the entire air forces of the US, Korea and Japan.

---

Now, if China continues to spend a modest 1.7% of GDP on the military, the military balance is only going to change gradually, and the US will still have a significant advantage in the number of 5th generation fighters for air superiority purposes, along with secure rear area bases in Japan.

But the more J-20s and tankers China has, the higher the costs that China can impose. Potentially ensuring a Korea collapse even if China is at a disadvantage in overall 5th generation fighters. And presumably this would be combined with a ground campaign against the US Army in South Korea.

---

But if China were to engage in an arms race and double military spending, the situation would change drastically in the next 10 years.
If China were to double military spending to 3.4% of GDP, that is still less than the US which is currently at 3.7%

That works out to almost $300 Billion per year extra in Chinese military spending on an exchange rate basis.
And that would buy you enough J-20s and Y-20U tankers to contest overall air superiority in Korea and Japan.

And if you also strip out the effects of labour costs (39% for the USA, DOD estimate 33% for China), it also means China is spending more on the military than the US. And that is before we take into account lower equipment costs in China
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
And if you look at the distances in the South China Seas, you're looking at a maximum of around 1900km from Hainan to potential island bases that the US has occupied. Again, you have a similar calculation between:

1. JH-XX launching 400km range JASSMs that cost $0.5M
versus
2. trucks on Hainan launching the same missiles with a 1900km range that cost $1.5M

With a notional JH-XX cost of $150M, you need to launch say 150 missiles before a JH-XX works out better.
Again, you've got the same issues with a JH-XX being shot down and higher operating costs.

---

And I just don't see the US setting up that many bases on Malaysian or Indonesian territory
So I see any contingencies here being covered comfortably covered by a combination of long-range missiles, tankers, J-20s, H-6s, H-20s, GB-11s etc





In terms of priorities and importance, I see defence of Chinese SLOCs as secondary.

And for the next 15 years at least, it's futile to divert many resources to break a US blockade on China, because US carriers will control the waters past the 2nd Island Chain anyway.

---

In comparison, the defence of the mainland China seaboard is paramount.

That includes the megacity of Shanghai which only lies 800km from the Japanese Home Islands.
South Korea is only 400km from mainland China.
They are close enough for fighters to conduct airstrikes and air superiority missions against each other

So why develop a yet another new bomber type for distant operations when a larger Y-20U tanker and J-20 fleet could simultaneously:

1. Secure Chinese cities on the mainland

2. Establish air superiority (at least temporarily) and target the ships at Korean or Japanese ports.
Korea and Japan are small resource-poor island nations which can't survive if their SLOCs are crippled by attacks on their ports. (South Korea is effectively an island because the northern border is sealed off)
In comparison, China can be largely self-sufficient as it is the same size as the continental US and also has overland trade routes

So if there is a US blockade of China (which includes US bases in the South China Seas), it's easier and better for China to push a counter-blockade of Korea and Japan.

In such a scenario, we can expect Korea to collapse first, with increasingly desperate US attempts to prevent this.

But this mission does mean the Chinese Air Force taking on the entire air forces of the US, Korea and Japan.

---

Now, if China continues to spend a modest 1.7% of GDP on the military, the military balance is only going to change gradually, and the US will still have a significant advantage in the number of 5th generation fighters for air superiority purposes, along with secure rear area bases in Japan.

But the more J-20s and tankers China has, the higher the costs that China can impose. Potentially ensuring a Korea collapse even if China is at a disadvantage in overall 5th generation fighters. And presumably this would be combined with a ground campaign against the US Army in South Korea.

---

But if China were to engage in an arms race and double military spending, the situation would change drastically in the next 10 years.
If China were to double military spending to 3.4% of GDP, that is still less than the US which is currently at 3.7%

That works out to almost $300 Billion per year extra in Chinese military spending on an exchange rate basis.
And that would buy you enough J-20s and Y-20U tankers to contest overall air superiority in Korea and Japan.

And if you also strip out the effects of labour costs (39% for the USA, DOD estimate 33% for China), it also means China is spending more on the military than the US. And that is before we take into account lower equipment costs in China

Everything that you wrote here I've basically all I addressed in this thread, and is basically consistent with what I wrote in one of my earlier replies to you:
"Which gets to my point -- there are absolutely missions which a JH-XX could be well suited for and able to do so arguably better than land based cruise missiles, but for the PLAs priority of funding, H-20 likely is far more important than JH-XX and at the system of systems level the JH-XX is likely not an immediately high priority"
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
And if you look at the distances in the South China Seas, you're looking at a maximum of around 1900km from Hainan to potential island bases that the US has occupied. Again, you have a similar calculation between:

1. JH-XX launching 400km range JASSMs that cost $0.5M
versus
2. trucks on Hainan launching the same missiles with a 1900km range that cost $1.5M

With a notional JH-XX cost of $150M, you need to launch say 150 missiles before a JH-XX works out better.
Again, you've got the same issues with a JH-XX being shot down and higher operating costs.

---

And I just don't see the US setting up that many bases on Malaysian or Indonesian territory
So I see any contingencies here being covered comfortably covered by a combination of long-range missiles, tankers, J-20s, H-6s, H-20s, GB-11s etc

To avoid politicizing this, I will refer to potential use cases against a "large foreign naval adversary" and "regional maritime allies" instead of any specific country.

But yes, this is a good point. A stealthy striker would most useful for contesting SLOCs directly against LFNA, but how realistic or necessary is that vs. having more air superiority and tanker platforms? Here is my take:

1. It doesn't conflict in terms of industrial resources! A stealthy striker made by Shenyang does not reduce the capability of Chengdu or Xi'an to produce fighters and tankers. In addition it is likely to have some use for tooling developed for the J-16 and J-31 since it uses a conventional layout, and it will keep Shenyang busy once J-16 production winds down.

2. In terms of monetary cost, I believe we have a realistic reference. We don't need to guess $150 million USD. Let's look at a Mig31 as a comparison. I believe Mig31 and F35 is a good comparison due to size and role, with the high speed capability (an airframe capability question) being replaced by LO capability (also an airframe question).

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that doesn't need to be too maneuverable. Mig claimed an export price of
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($400 million USD for 8x planes).
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. The radar is likely $2-3 million USD. That means the airframe and 'common components' like control systems costs $40 million USD or $1.8 million per meter length of fuselage.
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at LRIP,
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, $66 million USD for radar + fuselage. Let's say that the radar costs $3 million USD which is likely an underestimate. $62 million, 15.7 m fuselage, $3.9 million per m fuselage.

Let's say that the cost per fuselage length is average between Mig31 and a LRIP F35. It will be more expensive than a non LO airframe but cheaper than a LRIP US fighter due to advantages in labor cost, project management and existing tooling, the costs of the large weapons bays being the same as the cost of a small weapons bay, etc. $2.85 million USD per m of aircraft.

So a rough estimate will be $30*2.85 for fuselage + $6 million for 2x WS-10C class engines + $5 million radar. Overall cost: $101.5 million USD for LRIP.

Let's say that mass production brings its price down to more Mig-31 levels with the fuselage at $2 million per meter. Now with mass production it's in the $75 million USD range.

Let's compare to other planes.
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. Let's say it has
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A JH-XX with 10000 kg payload would thus be cost competitive even if it were $275 million per plane: $550 million for 20000 kg payload delivered via LO platform. But as I estimated, it is likely to cost $70-100 million USD per plane based on a reasonable price estimate. So it is actually 2x-3x as cost effective.

3. for a "ground based intervention in support of mutual defense treaty allies against regional aggressors", a stealthy striker would play a key role in striking missile interceptors, long range radars, shipping, AWAC, tankers, etc. Being able to stop the aggressor's logistics and cargo capability, both surface and airborne, without being detected and in a time sensitive manner, is a missing capability.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
EDIT: typo, I estimated $10 million USD radar not $5million. So if its $5 million it's actually even cheaper at $96.5 million LRIP but still $76 million for mass production. Still extremely cost effective. Even the range is competitive: Mig-31 has 3000 km range which is easily achieved for a JH-XX via the large 30 m fuselage and wing's internal fuel volume and capability of carrying drop tanks that are exhausted first, and even that is using high power but low efficiency low bypass turbofan (D-30 was called 'bypassing turbojet').
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Well, kind of. All stealth fighters (the only stealth aircraft that fly supersonically) have features the long wave radar can pick up by Rayleigh scattering. A bomber engineered to fly supersonically would presumably have those features - the model of the JH-XX has them.
Depends on the angle of exposure.
All 3 projects of such bombers I am aware of had remarkably featureless bottoms.

Matching subsonic flying wing in all aspect/band stealth would be hard, but making it broadband sneaky is clearly doable.
 
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