CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[Intrepid]

Once the PLAN has sufficient super carriers/catapult carriers be they conventional or nuclear I think pretty much all the options mentioned will be valid for the ski jump carriers:
- In peacetime they can still be used for training, international visits and exchanges, etc.
- In MOOTW they can be used more as LHA's for delivering aid, emergency evacuations, etc.
- In wartime they can still very much make a difference working in conjunction with land based aircraft up through the 1st island chain.
- Finally in retirement they would make great museums, perhaps even floating theme parks, not so much casinos though.

- they can be converted to a CATOBAR-carrier.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Well I am more of the opinion that the PLAN may seek to keep both CV-16 and CV-17 in active service until the end of their useful time, sometime in 2040 at least. This is obvious for the brand new CV-17 but less so for the CV-16 but it is still possible.
In the bigger picture of a 6 carrier fleet, I think that the PLAN would want to have it's expeditionary fleet to consist solely of CATOBAR carriers. But the ski-jump carriers can serve as mainly full time training carriers and also operations within the 1st island chain, whereby strike capability can be carry out by landbased bombers instead of carrier fighters, thus negating the weakness of CV-16 and CV-17.
My most optimistic prediction for the PLAN carrier fleet to be as such :
6 CATOBAR carriers and the 2 existing STOBAR, making a total of 8.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

- they can be converted to a CATOBAR-carrier.

That is highly unlikely. by design a CATOBAR carrier has to be built so from the ground up, there would be simply no space on board the CV-17 and CV-16 for the catapult equipment, nor would they possess sufficient steam or electric power to operated either form of catapults.
Even in the unlikely even that they could, the time and cost of retrofitting them would be such that it would be simply more expedient to get a purposed built CATOBAR carrier instead.

 

[Iron Man]

- they can be converted to a CATOBAR-carrier.

Not a chance in hell. "Converting" a STOBAR into a CATOBAR involves far more than putting cats into the flight deck. It would involve deleting massive amounts of space currently being used for something operational and installing all the necessary power generation, storage, and transmission equipment in their place, not just the cats themselves. It would involve massive modifications of the flight deck, the 03 deck, and several decks below the hangar deck. The space and cost requirements would certainly be prohibitive. Any PLAN official foolish enough to even consider it seriously should be straight up fired.

 

[MrDeadpool]

The pictures in this thread from late-2015 show it's no bigger than the hangar on the Liaoning.

I agree, already saw the pictures, but I still have my doubts about the length. I know there will be no significant differences, if any. Thank you all for your help about this!

 

[plawolf]

Not a chance in hell. "Converting" a STOBAR into a CATOBAR involves far more than putting cats into the flight deck. It would involve deleting massive amounts of space currently being used for something operational and installing all the necessary power generation, storage, and transmission equipment in their place, not just the cats themselves. It would involve massive modifications of the flight deck, the 03 deck, and several decks below the hangar deck. The space and cost requirements would certainly be prohibitive. Any PLAN official foolish enough to even consider it seriously should be straight up fired.

Unless they actually planned ahead and already built in the upgrade options into 001A, much like the RN QE class.

Converting the Liaoning would be a massive undertaking, but then so was fixing her up in the first place.

And money is not the only consideration in terms of determining the valiabiliy of projects. Time would also be a massive consideration.

No matter how extensive the modifications needed are, converting 001A or even the Liaoning to CATOBAR carriers would still only take a fraction of the time it would take to build a brand new CATOBAR carrier.

If the security situation continues to worsen as the overall strategic rivalry with the US intensities, the PLAN top brass may well feel that having 2 more CATOBAR carriers operational after 1 year of upgrades and refits would be better than waiting 2-3 years for brand new CATOBAR carriers to be built. Especially once the naval stealth comes online, which will be a CATOBAR aircraft to be sure, no matter which design the ultimately go for.

Such an upgrade may well happen sooner than people might think. After the first two CATOBAR carriers are operational and the second pair of CATOBAR carriers, which will almost certainly be CVNs, are handed over would be a good time.

The crews from the Liaoning and 001A could transfer across wholesale to the new CVNs to bring them online in the shortness time possible.

The Liaoning and 001A could go straight into the same drydocks that just built the new CVNs; while the first pair of CATOBAR carriers take on extra training responsibilities to train up replacement crews for the Liaoning and 001A.

As such, the PLAN could potentially surg up to 6 combat ready CATOBAR carriers as early as 1 year after the CVNs are handed over.

Now ideally they could want to take things more slowly, but that is certainly one option, and a scenario where upgrading to CATOBAR would make a lot of sense.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Unless they actually planned ahead and already built in the upgrade options into 001A, much like the RN QE class.

Converting the Liaoning would be a massive undertaking, but then so was fixing her up in the first place.

And money is not the only consideration in terms of determining the valiabiliy of projects. Time would also be a massive consideration.

No matter how extensive the modifications needed are, converting 001A or even the Liaoning to CATOBAR carriers would still only take a fraction of the time it would take to build a brand new CATOBAR carrier.

If the security situation continues to worsen as the overall strategic rivalry with the US intensities, the PLAN top brass may well feel that having 2 more CATOBAR carriers operational after 1 year of upgrades and refits would be better than waiting 2-3 years for brand new CATOBAR carriers to be built. Especially once the naval stealth comes online, which will be a CATOBAR aircraft to be sure, no matter which design the ultimately go for.

Such an upgrade may well happen sooner than people might think. After the first two CATOBAR carriers are operational and the second pair of CATOBAR carriers, which will almost certainly be CVNs, are handed over would be a good time.

The crews from the Liaoning and 001A could transfer across wholesale to the new CVNs to bring them online in the shortness time possible.

The Liaoning and 001A could go straight into the same drydocks that just built the new CVNs; while the first pair of CATOBAR carriers take on extra training responsibilities to train up replacement crews for the Liaoning and 001A.

As such, the PLAN could potentially surg up to 6 combat ready CATOBAR carriers as early as 1 year after the CVNs are handed over.

Now ideally they could want to take things more slowly, but that is certainly one option, and a scenario where upgrading to CATOBAR would make a lot of sense.

Define "fraction of a time", we aren't talking about some simple refit or overhaul here. We are talking about a process of the about same complexity of refueling and overhauling a nuclear powered carrier. A monumental task on itself that takes near 3 years to complete and that is without any serious change to the original design.
Installing a catapult on either CV-16 or CV-17 would entitled ripping off the flight deck in its entirety to install the required systems, redesigning and rebuilding at least the first 3 levels immediately below deck and the installation of new powerplants to power the catapults if the original engines are not up to stat.
There is no way, no way on earth that such an operation can be completed within the span of a single year.
That the PLAN was willing to risk much funding and time to refurbish the Liaoning is not a surprise. It was their best opportunity to acquire a good sized carrier for them to analyze and experiment with.

 

[kwaigonegin]

The PLA does not waste equipment by retiring them early. Just look at all the legacy museum pieces worthy stuff they are still operating even today.

If it works and serves a valid purpose, the PLA will keep it rather than spend huge sums to buy something new to do the same job just for the sake of having something newer.

As such, I think they will eek out all the use they can out of their first pair of carriers. We may even see them converted for catobar ops, although it will probably only be for the waist, with the ski jump retained both to reduce the amount of work needed, but also to allow them to continue to use all the STOBAR J15s.

The very worst case scenario, they could keep the two as dedicated training carriers to make sure all the frontline carriers have fully qualified pilots ready for immediate deployment rather than having to relegate a full frontline carrier to training duties for 1/4-1/3 of their lives as the USN does.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. While 100% agreed that in the past China has milked every ounce of capabilities and usefulness out of old and legacy assets, I do not forsee them following the same strategy going forward as least not to the same degree which they have been. China of today and the future is not the same China of the 80s and 90s. They can AFFORD to phase out legacy equipment.

Carriers have a lifespan of 50 + years. I serious doubt CV17 will still be active duty in 2070! or Liaoning in 2060! especially when they have a bunch or CVNs and who knows what by then.

Another reason is China has up till now not been in any serious military conflict that potentially highlight the shortcomings of these legacy systems and as such have not yet fully experienced first hand the uselessness of these systems (no matter how well maintained) when come face to face with modern systems. If or when they do I guarantee you all that old stuff they've been hoarding and using will be phase out quite expeditiously.

 

[Iron Man]

Unless they actually planned ahead and already built in the upgrade options into 001A, much like the RN QE class.

Converting the Liaoning would be a massive undertaking, but then so was fixing her up in the first place.

And money is not the only consideration in terms of determining the valiabiliy of projects. Time would also be a massive consideration.

No matter how extensive the modifications needed are, converting 001A or even the Liaoning to CATOBAR carriers would still only take a fraction of the time it would take to build a brand new CATOBAR carrier.

If the security situation continues to worsen as the overall strategic rivalry with the US intensities, the PLAN top brass may well feel that having 2 more CATOBAR carriers operational after 1 year of upgrades and refits would be better than waiting 2-3 years for brand new CATOBAR carriers to be built. Especially once the naval stealth comes online, which will be a CATOBAR aircraft to be sure, no matter which design the ultimately go for.

Such an upgrade may well happen sooner than people might think. After the first two CATOBAR carriers are operational and the second pair of CATOBAR carriers, which will almost certainly be CVNs, are handed over would be a good time.

The crews from the Liaoning and 001A could transfer across wholesale to the new CVNs to bring them online in the shortness time possible.

The Liaoning and 001A could go straight into the same drydocks that just built the new CVNs; while the first pair of CATOBAR carriers take on extra training responsibilities to train up replacement crews for the Liaoning and 001A.

As such, the PLAN could potentially surg up to 6 combat ready CATOBAR carriers as early as 1 year after the CVNs are handed over.

Now ideally they could want to take things more slowly, but that is certainly one option, and a scenario where upgrading to CATOBAR would make a lot of sense.

Your entire premise is based upon the hypothesis that the Soviets prebuilt CATOBAR spaces into their STOBAR carrier. Please provide any evidence at all that this was actually the case.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Your entire premise is based upon the hypothesis that the Soviets prebuilt CATOBAR spaces into their STOBAR carrier. Please provide any evidence at all that this was actually the case.

He is referring more to the Type 001A, which is build with PLAN input and not just based solely off the Liaoning. All of what he says is still highly conjecture of course. We don't know for sure if the PLAN have reserved any plans for the Type 001A to have catapults in the possible future, though the trend points towards it being highly unlikely.
As for the Liaoning, the verdict is a 100 per cent no.