CV-16, CV-17 STOBAR carrier thread (001/Liaoning, 002/Shandong)

[tphuang]

It's actually unfair in another direction - yak-38 ops were not just experimental, they were outright dangerous. Moreover, they were essentially a tertiary force, an afterthought - after ships' main armament (strongly suggest visiting Kiev theme park in Tianjin - main caliber magazine alone is worth the trip!) and helicopter wing.
Su-33(and J-15), for all its failings, is a fully developed, 100% combat-capable aircraft, sitting on a ship built around it as its primary system and reason d'etre.
The simple reason, in the end, was that the 1980s Soviet navy was...a thing, and actually thought in terms of having to fight a war.

Well, Admiral K had 12 P700 installed and a whole lot of SAMs. I don't think it really reflected any level of forward thinking in carrier ops.

Even if Yak-38 ops were dangerous (I don't know the answer to that), it's still a much smaller and less complex aircraft to move around and be able to take off. It just requires much better coordination to move around a flanker in tight spaces and getting them to fly.

 

[Blitzo]

btw, I don't quite remember this now, but did PLAN make any modifications in elevators from Kuznetsov to CV-16 and then to CV-17? Can they fit more than 1 J-15 per lift?

No modifications of note.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Well, Admiral K had 12 P700 installed and a whole lot of SAMs. I don't think it really reflected any level of forward thinking in carrier ops.

Still, 1143.5 onwards is clearly a carrier first, anything else - as a bonus(or, to be exact, intention to participate in fleet salvo with every ship).
First 4 ships were battlecruisers with a big deck.

Even if Yak-38 ops were dangerous (I don't know the answer to that), it's still a much smaller and less complex aircraft to move around and be able to take off. It just requires much better coordination to move around a flanker in tight spaces and getting them to fly.

Yep, and coordination is a matter of procedures, training and drills. Two navies in discussion bothered with it(late Soviet, PLAN), one couldn't care less(RuN).
Vikramaditya airwing, as far as i know, is also being kept to a far higher standard than the Kuznetsov wing.

 

[gelgoog]

Photos of nearly identical parts of the two ships, I think that's nuff said about their conditions. Question is what did Kuznetsov look like when she was new. Was her more like Liaoning and the current state reflect hard use + bad maintenance or was Liaoning's refit just to a higher standard than Kuznetsov originally to start with.

The maintenance of the Admiral Kuznetsov carrier and Sovremenny destroyers boilers after the collapse of the Soviet Union was pretty shoddy. The sailors used salt water instead of plain water in the boilers as per design and the corrosion did those in. With the latest refit they should have replaced all the steam boilers on the Admiral Kuznetsov so I doubt the engine room still looks that bad.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Rafale and super hornet are both not really usable for the carriers Vikrant and Vikramaditya. Here is a picture of Mig29k on Vikramaditya (with no edge lift). See the narrow fit on that, yikes.

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The Russians really pulled one on IN here. Keep in mind Rafale-M does not have folding wings. Just imagine what kind of operational tempo you can get with that type of tight fit. They might be able to fit Rafale-M on the Vikrant edge elevators, but they will have to be very careful (meaning very slow operation)


It's kind of unfair to compare Yak-38 operational rate with Su-33. Su-33 is a much larger, complex and capable aircraft compared to Yak-38. The joke was that you can take-off with a Yak-38, fly 2 circles around the carrier and then it had to land.

Just take a look at a su-33. you have to fold both the wings and the horizontal tail surfaces. And it has canards. Also being a modern 4th gen heavy fighter jet, it just needs more upkeep time than something like Yak-38. So, su-33/J-15s' general availability and getting ready to fly, to take off and land will take so much more work.

btw, I don't quite remember this now, but did PLAN make any modifications in elevators from Kuznetsov to CV-16 and then to CV-17? Can they fit more than 1 J-15 per lift?

India is developing the TEDBF and possibly a future navalized variant of the AMCA. They could configure these designs to fit the elevators of the Vikramaditya, Vikrant, and the future Vishal.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

The maintenance of the Admiral Kuznetsov carrier and Sovremenny destroyers boilers after the collapse of the Soviet Union was pretty shoddy. The sailors used salt water instead of plain water in the boilers as per design and the corrosion did those in. With the latest refit they should have replaced all the steam boilers on the Admiral Kuznetsov so I doubt the engine room still looks that bad.

Using salt water in a boiler reducing the expected lifetime to days, if not hours.

Every tons of salt water carry 3.5kg of minerals and other not water stuff, means it will block all boiler piping, an the corrosion problem is small compared to this

 

[luosifen]

Brief interviews with some of Liaoning's crew members.

 

[Strangelove]

CV-17 Shandong in da house...,easy to build, but the decals require some effort.

 

[supersnoop]

*Off topic.
Go on Taobao, buy it from any book merchant, and use a transfer merchant to air freight it to you. Might take a couple of weeks though and will cost alot more quid than the magazine itself. The popular issues like when the H-20 CG showed up might cost you more time since they have to reprint.
Otherwise get like half yearly/yearly back issues on taobao and get it shipped to you via sea freight, much cheaper but takes like a month and a half to arrive lol.

Sorry to continue this off-topic.
That is really complicated. This is a common magazine, if you have friends in cities with many Chinese people like Toronto, NYC, Vancouver, SF (since you are in North America), they can easily find it and send it to you. I saw it at the grocery store last week.

Rule of thumb, if your town has a Sun Yat Sen statue, probably you can find this magazine.

 

[lcloo]

Translated from French by Henry K/ East Pendulum, by Google translate:-
According to the Taiwanese MoD, the Chinese aircraft carrier 16 Liaoning has carried out a total of 70 training and sea trips since its admission to active service in September 2012, including 10 beyond the first island chain.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522167527832358912