thunderchief
Senior Member
Reported unexploded Ukrainian warhead with cluster munition, either OTR-21 Tochka (SS-21) or BM-30 Smerch .
Crisis in the Ukraine
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Must be MLRS, it looks too small for any kind of Tochka war head. It looks most like a GRAD anti personnel mine layer to me.
thunderchief
Senior Member
Alleged pictures of MH-17. There are claims that plane was downed with Su-25 cannon fire . Make your own conclusions .
thunderchief
Senior Member
It is definitely not GRAD, GRAD rockets are much smaller (122 mm , see below) .
It could be Smerch tho
Several journalists reached the crash site yesterday easily, but the Dutch/Australian group that should be recovering bodies and investigating the causes of the crash were again stopped by the fighting. I suppose that the routes are first agreed with Kiev and that Kiev selects impossible routes. Am I too suspicious?
The BBC talked this morning about direct talks between Merkel and Putin. Indeed I thought it unlikely that such talks were not taking place. So how would that play in Washington and Kiev?
The BBC talked this morning about direct talks between Merkel and Putin. Indeed I thought it unlikely that such talks were not taking place. So how would that play in Washington and Kiev?
Alleged pictures of MH-17. There are claims that plane was downed with Su-25 cannon fire . Make your own conclusions .
View attachment 10152
View attachment 10153
or could be shrapnel from a SAM or could be shrapnel from an exploding jet engine..........
Well, this plate shows only hundreds of smaller and bigger splinters coming from the same direction with some big enough to penetrate and other only scratched it. Nothing more.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I would like to point out three things about Thunder's "Evidence".
1) even if they could prove it to be a SU25's 30mm cannon both Russia and the Ukraine use that shell and aircraft.
2) until a bullet shell is found and a full investigation processed this is just more pissing in the wind. Something we have all been guilty of.
3) none of us are trained to study a price of debris via photo. Nor for that matter would any conclusion from a photo be binding as what we are seeing is just one side of various parts of the wreck with wholes, that just happens to have a nice round large edge that for all we know could have been made after the crash. There is no real context or analysis.
1) even if they could prove it to be a SU25's 30mm cannon both Russia and the Ukraine use that shell and aircraft.
2) until a bullet shell is found and a full investigation processed this is just more pissing in the wind. Something we have all been guilty of.
3) none of us are trained to study a price of debris via photo. Nor for that matter would any conclusion from a photo be binding as what we are seeing is just one side of various parts of the wreck with wholes, that just happens to have a nice round large edge that for all we know could have been made after the crash. There is no real context or analysis.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I'm not trained to analysis debris from pictures, but common sense suggest those are shrapnel holes to me.
The key is less the holes themselves, but more everything else.
There are clearly a large number of scratches and dints and near perforations that all form too clear a pattern and are too numerous to have been caused by ground impact IMO, especially the kind of soft grassy fields the debris came down in.
If those dints and scrtahes were caused by the same thing that punctured the fuselage and caused those holes, then it clearly could not have been cannon fire as that metal hull is nowhere near strong enough to deflect cannon fire like that.
The only thing I know of that will release a large profusion of debris of varying sizes, all traveling in the same general direction, with some having enough mass and energy penetrate an airplane fuselage while others can only scratch it or dint it would be a fragmentation warhead from a missile.
The key is less the holes themselves, but more everything else.
There are clearly a large number of scratches and dints and near perforations that all form too clear a pattern and are too numerous to have been caused by ground impact IMO, especially the kind of soft grassy fields the debris came down in.
If those dints and scrtahes were caused by the same thing that punctured the fuselage and caused those holes, then it clearly could not have been cannon fire as that metal hull is nowhere near strong enough to deflect cannon fire like that.
The only thing I know of that will release a large profusion of debris of varying sizes, all traveling in the same general direction, with some having enough mass and energy penetrate an airplane fuselage while others can only scratch it or dint it would be a fragmentation warhead from a missile.
I am now listening to my favorite radio station. It has said among other things:
The Malaysian prime minister Razak is in The Hague and gave a press conference together with the Dutch prime minister Rutte.
The Ukrainian army keeps a ceasefire today to allow OCSE observers to reach the crash site, which has now happened.
However the Dutch prime minister said that the people who are to recover the remaining bodies, about eighty, and the personal possessions of the victims will be kept away from the crash site for at least several more days.
The Malaysian prime minister Razak is in The Hague and gave a press conference together with the Dutch prime minister Rutte.
The Ukrainian army keeps a ceasefire today to allow OCSE observers to reach the crash site, which has now happened.
However the Dutch prime minister said that the people who are to recover the remaining bodies, about eighty, and the personal possessions of the victims will be kept away from the crash site for at least several more days.
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