Chinese submarines thread

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BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Re: Chinese sub thread

I've read that those converted 4 Ohios SSGNs are equal to 12 SSNs due to the # of SLCM carried and missions performed. It is possible that more SSBNs will be converted in the future, offsetting LA boats being retired. I also heard that one way to maintain the numbers adequate is to keep the older subs comissioned longer. Will they do it? As they say in the Navy, "that's above my paygrade!" But the PLAN will surely keep the
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subs in reserve for training, mining, decoys, transport, etc.
..China's People's Liberation Army-Navy (PLAN) keep a "big but old" submarine force, including 30 active Romeo-class submarines and another 30 ones in reserve, which have the technology as old as the US submarines in its 1950s, according to Lieutenant Commander Murray. The Ming-class, the type of No 361, is a modification of the Romeo-class and therefore is regarded as "very old-fashioned" submarines. China now has 20 of such subs..
Don't underestimate China's submarine forces
Although Chinese navy has a series of problems such as obsolete submarines and technical difficulties in developing advanced designs, American experts believe that the strength of China's submarine force should not be underestimated.
"Even a sub force without good maintenance or top technology can be a threat, if able to lurk in shallow waters or otherwise remain quiet and hard to detect--in other words, such a sub fleet may be able to ambush even if it can't easily pursue," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior analysts of Brookings Institute.
Submarines are the maritime weapons posing the greatest threat to an aircraft carrier formation. Submarines are also our Navy's core force, said one Chinese strategist. Retired Navy rear Admiral Michael McDevitt, a close observer of the Chinese Navy, also believed that submarine is "an essential ingredient in the maritime strategy of China". Murray wrote in his recently published article "China's Subs Lead the Way" that "submarines will for the backbone of China's gradual strategic reorientation toward maritime priorities".
Dr. Swaine said, "Any diesel submarine is always a potent weapon and poses problems to naval officers. It is difficult to be detected if submarines are well maintained. China is moving into that direction. But it does mean that it now has the denial capability on the sea. However, China's naval modernization program created a higher level of concerns (for the US) of free navigation in that area."
The destruction of US aircraft carrier battle groups remains the focal point of the doctrinal development of the Chinese Navy. Its diesel submarines would be the decisive force in realizing this new doctrine.
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I have seen 2 subs in Bremerton, WA that were used back in the 1950s-60s as radar pickets before the AWACs appeared! Why are they still there?
Although two of the MIGRAINE III boats were put out of service and scrapped almost immediately, the remainder were reclassified as conventional attack boats (SS) or as auxiliary general submarines (AGSS) for non-combat duties, and they survived for "twilight careers" that lasted as late as 1978. The longest-lived was Sailfish, which was decommissioned in September of that year and which still remains laid up and afloat at Bremerton.
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0857205.jpg
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Type 095?

Anyone ever hear about this new nuclear sub?




From the Taipei Times, Wednesday, Dec 06, 2006, Page 8

China could have its first aircraft carrier battle group composed of 11 warships in place by 2020, a high-ranking official from the Ministry of National Defense told a recent symposium hosted by the Institute for Taiwan Defense and Strategic Studies to discuss the purchase of diesel-electric submarines. His remark is probably an understatement and the ministry has seriously underestimated China's capability to develop and deploy submarines.

The ministry estimated that China will have two Type 093 nuclear-powered attack submarines in this planned aircraft carrier battle group. Named the "Shang-class" by NATO, Type 093 is a refined model of the Russian Victor-III class and an engineering project complementary to the construction of China's Type 094 Jin-class nuclear-powered guided ballistic missile submarines. Deploying two nuclear-powered attack submarines in a middle-sized aircraft carrier battle group is adequate.

Over the past decade, China's submarine technology has made huge progress. In addition to its highly developed Type 093, Bei-jing may have more advanced nuclear-powered attack submarines, possibly Type 095, by 2020.

International media reports indicate that China may have completed the design of Type 095 and initiated the first phase of construction. Some believe the hull of Type 095 has been given a Western rather than a Russian design and that the underwater noise level of the engines has been reduced.

The Type 095 may also dopt the sophisticated HY-4 cruise missile with a range of 3,000km. If this type of missile carries a nuclear warhead, it can destroy up to 2km2 of any targeted area.

China is planning to build five Type 095 submarines. If the Type 095 can join its aircraft carrier battle group by 2020, its overall combat capabilities will easily exceed those of Type 093.

The ministry's projection of the make-up of China's aircraft carrier battle group also ignores the great technological progress China has made in building diesel-electric submarines in recent years. After Russia delivered the second batch of eight Russian Kilo-class Type 636 attack submarines to Beijing, China's diesel-electric submarine technology has improved considerably through imitation or technology transfer.

According to a foreign news report, China's Ming-class submarines have begun testing the installation of an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system that operates on liquid oxyhydrogen cells. Moreover, China's navy continues to improve its Type 039 Song-class submarine, which was recently found stalking the USS Kitty Hawk near Okinawa.

In future, all Song-class submarines are likely to be equipped with the AIP system and China will take the initiative to acquire new weapons systems from Russia, including supersonic anti-ship missiles, land-attack cruise missiles, wake-homing torpedoes and supercavitating torpedoes.

Prior to 2020 then, China's fleet of diesel-electric submarines will have become an underwater threat that nations in the Asia-Pacific region cannot ignore. That would constitute a structural change to the the strategic security of both the Taiwan Strait and the first island chain. Such a strategic alteration would put tremendous pressure on Taiwan.

Taiwan's defense capabilities will be unable to deal with these changes single-handedly and the nation cannot simply pin its hopes on the acquisition of a few diesel-electric submarines.

As the most vulnerable and strategically most important link in the first island chain, Taiwan should seek to improve its defense capabilities and strengthen military cooperation with both the US and Japan to deter China's expansionist ambitions.

Ta-chen Cheng is an adjunct assistant professor at Tamkang University.

Translated by Daniel Cheng
 

tphuang

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Re: Type 095?

combined these two threads, you can find the stuff I posted on 095 SSN last page or a few pages back. They've definitely started producing components on 095 already.
 

Gollevainen

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Re: Chinese sub thread

They've definitely started producing components on 095 already.

according to who? And what sort of components? And how has specificed them belongong to this 095?????

thanks in advance;)
 

tphuang

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Re: Chinese sub thread

according to who? And what sort of components? And how has specificed them belongong to this 095?????

thanks in advance;)
This is one of the company involved in 095 project.
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It lists the items that it needs to accomplish as part of the 11th 5 year plan (which is from 2006-2010)
one of them is.
09V核反应堆压力容器
09V - 095 (obviously)
The remaining are Chinese which your window might not read - it translates to Reactor Pressure Vessel (Pressurized reactor container?).
 

Gollevainen

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Re: Chinese sub thread

Just out of curiosity, Is the roman numbers used in mix of arabic numbers in the way that you presented? For example 054 would be 05IV and 052 would be 05II??(which doesen't make any sense) Or is this just one of those "could be this way"???
 

Kilo636

Banned Idiot
Re: Chinese sub thread

Just out of curiosity, Is the roman numbers used in mix of arabic numbers in the way that you presented? For example 054 would be 05IV and 052 would be 05II??(which doesen't make any sense) Or is this just one of those "could be this way"???

If the V is not for number 5,plus it clearly mention it is regarding to SSN.. Then What is it going to be desinated for? Type093? Then the V for what?
Gollevainen,u seems to have doubt abt the progress of PRC naval modernising progress? I know ,PRC is progressing so fast that some westerner are feeling hard to swallow or believe and thinking they r bulling.. I can understand their feeling. Plus,Tphuang has provide the link for what u want regarding of Type095.. Why u just can't accept type095 is going to be construct soon and doubt this or that?


Remember last time incident regarding CWIS 730 which u brush aside Tphuang claim on 054..In the end ,what happened?

I fully believe Tphuang claim on 095 being going to construct soon and PRC SSN progress to a next lvl. :china:
 
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ikaleem

New Member
Re: Chinese sub thread

Does any one know how the Augusta Class subs stack against Chinese Subs and what lessons can Chinese Navy learn from four Pakistani Subs that were recently commissioned
 

Gollevainen

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Re: Chinese sub thread

Hrmmph....or Is that Im simply fed up with people shouting things as heavenly facts when they are talking about assumptions made basing on suscpicious facts found on these almoust myhtical -oh, so always so rigth- chinese language military forums.

I see one link that mentions this oddity 09V....offcourse if you want to believe that it has to mean 095 and adding another odd sentence that could inturperated in many possiple way, means that its a nuclear powered submarine in question...then you belive it.

Again, I in otherhand ask, do chinese use generally a arabic/roman mix of numbers to report a same number?? Couse whitout that sort of practice, you cannot really claim that it means 095...it could mean simply 09 and V model of it:D

I have learned a thing called source-critisism and basics of scientific thinking that urges one to always suspect and doupt what he hear, sees or reads....I have been several occasions proven to be wrong a thing sadly only few of us can admitt, but you in other advocate blindly believing into something that clealry is what you want it to be...
I have always thougth that as self-foolery but if you are OK whit it, then im fine with it too:)

and your mentioned incident I said that a thing under green canavas can be anything, And I didnt jump into conclusion that it was a type 730 before I saw it there clearly
...Funny you mentioned that 054 thread...Thpuang posted a pic of 054A model with seccond VLS in the rear of the funnel...a pic which was posted in the same thread earlier with out any PS work...now did we see your vigilance of spotting little mistakes there? Or is it that only when the claims are of those which you don't want to hear you try to proove them being wrong but when they are exactly what you wish to hear, you will swallow just about anything??

It's all comes down to sentence, "I want to believe"....well, I dont, I want to know instead;) ;)
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: Chinese sub thread

I've read that those converted 4 Ohios SSGNs are equal to 12 SSNs due to the # of SLCM carried and missions performed. It is possible that more SSBNs will be converted in the future, offsetting LA boats being retired. I also heard that one way to maintain the numbers adequate is to keep the older subs comissioned longer. Will they do it? As they say in the Navy, "that's above my paygrade!" But the PLAN will surely keep the
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and
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subs in reserve for training, mining, decoys, transport, etc.

Each Ohio can carry 154 Tomahawks.

Under the requirements of the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, START II, which was agreed in June 1992, the number of strategic missile submarines was limited to 14 from the year 2002. Rather than decommissioning these four submarines, the US Navy is converting them to SSGNs. In September 2002, Electric Boat received a contract for the conversion of USS Ohio (SSBN 726), Michigan (727), Florida (728) and Georgia (729). The submarines are being refitted with up to 154 Tomahawk TLAM (land attack) or Tactical Tomahawk (Block IV) missiles and will also be capable of conducting special operations missions with accommodation for Northrop Grumman Advanced SEAL delivery systems (ASDS), mission control centre and 102 special operations troops.

The maximum, i believe will be 4, unless the US wants to build new Ohio class subs. They are not going to weaken their sub base nuclear detterant for that. These SSGN's came just in time. With the decomissioning of the Spruance Class DD's, the USN was needing a dedicated TLAM strike platform. These ships are much more survivable.
 
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