Chinese semiconductor industry

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weig2000

Captain
Ok. Then its only your word here.
Look, I'm not writing a peer-reviewed academic paper here. I'm not even to try to convince everyone. Take it as FYI, and believe/disbelieve as you choose.

No, its not just my assertion. Its an assertion based on experts, not only in the web but also on TV.
Do you really believe those on TV are more authoritative and knowledgeable than the sources on the web, in these days and ages?

For a friendly note, this is a topic of very fluid information currently. The western sources are usually clueless about what the Chinese can or cannot do, or what they have been doing in the background, etc. - to be fair and not to blame them, there is the language barrier to begin with, and then the Chinese authority is usually not very transparent here - the relatively more knowledgeable western sources usually go like this: because Chinese vendors/capabilities currently have very small market share, therefore they will not gain meaningful market share. Circular logic.

Without going into too much details to make this reply too long, here is the methodology I would apply to assess the situation: combining a bottom-up approach and a top-down approach.

Bottom-up: Chinese already has capabilities and players at various technology levels across the entire semiconductor manufacturing supply chain. They have small market shares because in a competitive market, they would not be given too much of an opportunity. Things are different now and everyone is motivated now thanks to the Trump administration.

Top-down: Semiconductor manufacturing is now a national priority; a Manhattan/Apollo type of national drive is under way now. Whereas previously much is left to the market, government will play a key role. The resources and coordination that are needed at the national level will be provided, far beyond what an individual company like Huawei, as capable as it is, can marshal.

Some historical notes: The broad US semiconductor sanctions in the last two years came as a shock only in its timing and fashion. China as a nation is very strategic about its technology development. Semiconductor manufacturing technology is one of the 16 key national tech projects in the Mid- and Long-Term National Key Technology Plan (2005-2020). It's the Project No 2. There are companies/institutes responsible for all the respective key technologies and equipment in the entire manufacturing process. Ordinarily, these would serve as backup and technology reserves. Much like HiSilicon, Huawei's semiconductor design division, had been working on "spare tire" technologies for years knowing that they would probably never be put in use. But they were, in the end.

Similar examples abound. In the '90s, China was invited to participate in the European navigation satellite program, Galileo. But China still had its own indigenous development going on. So when the collaboration didn't pan out, China went its separate way. The rest, as they say, is history now. In 2002, when the AWACS system developed by Israel was stopped by the US to deliver to China at the last minute, China continued with its own indigenous system development. See where the Chinese are now with various AWACS systems: KJ-2000, KJ-200, KJ-500, KJ-600, and exports to Pakistan military. As a last example, Obama administration sanctioned China's supercomputer projects back in 2015 by banning Intel chip export, which delayed China's new supercomputer at the time. China came back in a year to reclaim the world's fastest supercomputer title with its indigenous chips, which had been under development in the background as backup.

Let me emphasize again: I'm not writing a rigorous academic paper with all the references and checks. I'm just a long term Chinese tech observer, which in many ways is a lot like Chinese military watch, as we all do in this forum. So take it as what it is.

Perhabs the 3D Integration wont be as easy as some think. See below:

Just like EUV, i think that china will get to 3D chips, but it will take a long time, not enough to save huawei as we know it today IMO, and i think that they will always be at least one step behind others.

That report is talking about the relatively longer term trend, say 10-20 years, and not about saving Huawei's Kiirin class mobile chips, if that's what you have in mind. China as a nation is focusing on winning the long term. That'll be the last laugh.

I dont think that china would play on that. Doubtly those concessions would be worth lifting "some restrictions". And besides, even if biden wins now, whats to stop any sucessor of him from walking away from that arrangement?

I don't think China will make many of those "concessions," particularly in the political or national security areas. The US has proved it is untrustworthy and unrelaible. China is totally focusing on what it does. The train has left the station. Some of the Americans are delusional - since the trade war started, and will continue be likely.
 
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horse

Major
Registered Member
Just like EUV, i think that china will get to 3D chips, but it will take a long time, not enough to save huawei as we know it today IMO, and i think that they will always be at least one step behind others.
That is the great thing about business. The competition. The best companies win.

Huawei is such a dominant company. They will change what it means to be in manufacturing in the high tech space.

Not only are they currently making world leading 5G gear, and cell phones, they have branched out into the server market (to take advantage of the edge computing offered by 5G), and into AI along with the data storage.

This is the amazing part. All these coming innovations, of the 5G network and the edging computing, coupled with the AI, all that will be happening in China first, then ASEAN, the Middle East, essentially the global south. This will not happen in America or Europe for the next few years.

They need to build a standalone 5G network for that to happen. Their gear is second rate for 5G networks, and delays from mismanagement or bureaucracy is the story of 5G in the west so far.

So I agree with your assessment. The world is changing rapidly.

:oops: :D
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
A sample of foreign tech company helping China to develop its EV industry, the CCP based its decision on overall benefit of its economic, its not an emotion based decision. They only use sanction as a last resort and if they do ,its hard hitting and targeted sector that had limited repercussion to its economy.

Here they open up and allow 100% full foreign ownership to spur the local to innovate and to compete, at the same time establishing domestic supply chain to flourished.

from cnTechPost

Teslas 100% made in China? That possibility grows more realistic
2020-10-22 18:51:10 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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Teslas 100% made in China? That possibility grows more realistic-cnTechPost

The price of the China-made Tesla Model 3 keeps getting lower as it adopts more local parts, especially the battery. Now there are reports that Tesla may even use China-made motors and the possibility of Teslas 100% made in China grows more realistic.
According to
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, word circulated at the recent Beijing International Automotive Exhibition that the Model 3 will adopt a China-made motor in addition to a battery.

A number of Chinese companies are regarded as capable of supplying motors to Tesla. One candidate is Suzhou Inovance Automotive, which according to a securities house analysis has already supplied motors to emerging Chinese electric vehicle makers such as WM Motor and Li Auto. Starting with Tesla, Inovance is set to add major foreign EV producers to its customer list, the Nikkei report said.
Tesla has already adopted batteries produced by Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL), China's largest automotive lithium-ion battery maker.
Chinese companies are emerging as suppliers of not only batteries but also other components for electric vehicles.

A Chinese research firm reported that Zhejiang Sanhua Intelligent Controls, a maker of heat-control parts for electric vehicles, has Tesla, Volkswagen and General Motors on its customer list. In addition, Xiamen Hongfa Electroacoustic, which manufacturers electronic parts for EVs, is already doing business with Tesla, VW and Daimler, Nikkei noted.

On October 1, the China-made Tesla Model 3 began a new round of price cuts: the Model 3 with a standard driving range is adjusted to RMB 249,900 ($36,800) after subsidies, while the one with a longer range follows with a price cut to RMB 309,900 yuan. And it's only been five months since the last price cut.
According to Ping An Securities, considering the gross margin of the product and the positioning of the model, RMB 200,000 could be the bottom line for the China-made Model 3, and another price cut is expected in the first half of next year.
Ping An Securities expects Model 3 average gross margins to be around 20% in 2019, with an average cost per unit of around $38,400.

A cost breakout of the 2019 Model 3 produced in the US, based on financial data from key suppliers, industry data, and other publicly available information, is expected to have an average unit BOM cost of approximately $31,400, or approximately 82% of the total cost.
Ping An Securities forecasts each of the China-made Model 3 cost breakdown items separately by model and by China-made parts adoption rate.
Compared to the US plant, the Shanghai plant has a greater cost advantage over the US plant in terms of raw materials, labor, and depreciation, in addition to higher energy and logistics costs.

With the increase in the proportion of China-made parts, there is still room for China-made Model 3 prices to decline on the basis of ensuring reasonable profits, Ping An said.


Tesla is about to start shipping their cars made in China to Europe. That's what I said was going to happen when the US demands Made in America. There will be two factories US corporations will have. One for the US market and one outside the US for the rest of the world. The one for the rest of the world will also be subsidizing the US plant because production there will be so expensive that it wouldn't survive without it.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Hey, im not impatient. It is huawei that needs solutions in a year and half time from now. And just because huawei doesnt say what will be the solution, doesnt mean that they will have one.
You're very impatient. Why would you ask that question now if you know it's at least a year and a half before there needs to be answer? If China and Huawei are working on many projects in lithography, most of which aren't scheduled to have results until 2021-2022, where would you possibly expect an answer to come from at this time? Even the engineers themselves are still working on the solution so where on this forum would you expect to find someone who not only knows classified information, but also can see into the future?

The question shouldn't even be mentioned until at least a year later when some of the projects are expected to yield fruit. By that time, you may not need to ask. As of now, that question is as impatient as it is stupid.

No, its not just my assertion. Its an assertion based on experts, not only in the web but also on TV.
Well, there are also many experts who say that this will propel China to semiconductor dominance and destroy the American industry. Depends on who you want to listen to but the fact is that Western experts always underestimate China everywhere from technology to economy. China has done everything they say China cannot do and historically speaking, China has become self-sufficient in the face of every ban. The Germans have a wise saying: "When the Chinese come for your craft, you can count your final days."

Perhabs the 3D Integration wont be as easy as some think. See below:
Easy is not necessary. China's not Portugal.

Just like EUV, i think that china will get to 3D chips, but it will take a long time, not enough to save huawei as we know it today IMO, and i think that they will always be at least one step behind others.
Always? You're not familiar with the concept of overtaking others? It's China's specialty you know!

But you're right on one account: Huawei will not stay as we know it; it will evolve into something much more powerful because of this.

I dont think that china would play on that. Doubtly those concessions would be worth lifting "some restrictions". And besides, even if biden wins now, whats to stop any sucessor of him from walking away from that arrangement?
That much time?! Any successor of the next president don't have 2 red cents worth of semiconductor leverage against China by the time he's sworn in. The only thing he'll have to say to China about semiconductors is how many he wants to buy.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tesla is about to start shipping their cars made in China to Europe. That's what I said was going to happen when the US demands Made in America. There will be two factories US corporations will have. One for the US market and one outside the US for the rest of the world. The one for the rest of the world will also be subsidizing the US plant because production there will be so expensive that it wouldn't survive without it.

Yes. Today we see:

1. Chinese Teslas being higher quality than US Telsas.
2. The Chinese factory being significant faster and cheaper to build.
3. The Chinese Tesla production also being 20-28% cheaper than in the USA.

It's a no-brainer to have the Chinese Tesla factory supplying as much of the global market as possible.
Source below.

And the same logic applies to many other industries.

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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Tesla is about to start shipping their cars made in China to Europe. That's what I said was going to happen when the US demands Made in America. There will be two factories US corporations will have. One for the US market and one outside the US for the rest of the world. The one for the rest of the world will also be subsidizing the US plant because production there will be so expensive that it wouldn't survive without it.

Not WILL HAVE, but already have.

This has been long been true --- for decades --- with GM and Ford.

Both companies have totally different lines in the US versus the rest of the world which tend to be based on designs by their German subsidiaries, e.g. GM's Opel.

With GM and Ford selling more cars in China than the US, it only adds to the duality and the weight to the rest of the world side, with China now supplying the parts if not whole cars to the rest of the world side.
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes. Today we see:

1. Chinese Teslas being higher quality than US Telsas.
2. The Chinese factory being significant faster and cheaper to build.
3. The Chinese Tesla production also being 20-28% cheaper than in the USA.

It's a no-brainer to have the Chinese Tesla factory supplying as much of the global market as possible.
Source below.

And the same logic applies to many other industries.

Would this have anything to do with the recent news that Tesla has to recall cars in China that were made in USA and imported into China? It had to do with suspension issues. Although the affected cars were made in 2017 and not more recently.
 
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