Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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Registered Member
Perhaps this was also by design; since if TSMC goes bankrupt or gets into dire straits, it'll be US vulture funds looking to swoop in and buy it out, much as US funds did to Samsung back in '97.
Hi hashtagpls,

TSMC had a FABS in Nanjing China, the problem is they use a lot of American equipment in their production. To maintain their market share in China they need to invest and build a full Chinese equip FABS production solely for the Chinese market using SMEE 28NM DUVL OR incoming EUVL that entails a lot of investment. I think they will do just that after the US election and the final development of SMEE EUVL.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
Why couldn't TSMC have helped Huawei, themselves and China by not agreeing to become a part of the US' tech war? Even if TSMC were ratfucked and lied to by Trump/Pompeo/Pottinger (far more likely), they should have foreseen something like this, or provided assurances to Huawei/PRC that they wouldn't fuck with the chips.
The problem is TSMC cannot make chip equipment themselves. They still have to buy from ASML.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
China will not allow foreigners buying up a Chinese company like TSMC.
Hi Peter2018,

I think you may refer to the Nanjing FABS in China, but outside of it, especially TSMC FABS in Taiwan where most of its advances process and 20 plus EUVL machine deployed, China had no influences.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
The problem is TSMC cannot make chip equipment themselves. They still have to buy from ASML.
Hi Peter2018,

TSMC and ASML collaborate a lot, that is how they grew their business together, one of those joint development is the EUVL project with the US especially DARPA . At that time the Japanese company Nikon and Canon are supreme, they dominate that market. So in those days you can already see the machination of the US to undermined Japan. That exclusion set the stage for the coming of age for both TSMC and ASML ,that's how they dominate the market today.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nikkei article on Chinese semiconductors. Key points

1. TSMC 7nm logic chips actually have transistors which are 18nm wide
2. Flash memory has stabilised at 22-32nm as the optimum transistor size, which doesn't require EUV.
3. If 3D layer technology design improves enough, then the optimal transistor size for logic chips may end up as 22-32nm like Flash.


Semiconductor tech trends favor China
With miniaturization at a wall, upstarts gain edge in race for faster chips


For example, the actual gate length of a transistor in a "7nm" logic chip made last year by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp., known as TSMC, was somewhere around 18 nm, according to University of Tokyo professor Toshiro Hiramoto. It is a stark deviation from the "32 nm" chips, whose gate length was actually 32 nm or smaller.

...

Today, the typical transistor size of a flash chip is somewhere in the 22-32 nm range, larger than the 14-nm transistors used in flash memories a few years ago, according to industry experts.

...

ASML, bequeathed a monopoly, is believed to be selling one EUV lithography machine at a price range of $120 million to $170 million. When a chipmaker makes a deal with ASML, it buys a machine that is applicable only to tiny parts of the entire chip fabrication process and which brings about only modest miniaturization effects, industry experts say.

...

EUV machines today are used only for logic chips -- like PC microprocessors, system-on-chips in a smartphone and graphics processors for games and artificial-intelligence data crunching. Because of the complexity of circuit composition, logic chips have not been able to fully deploy 3D layer technologies.

When they do, the cost and difficulty of deploying EUV lithography may become less justifiable.

Flash-memory makers have actually skipped EUV. And "DRAM memories are unlikely to require EUV as far as I can see," predicts Sakamoto, who has run DRAM businesses at various companies including Texas Instruments, United Microelectronics (UMC) of Taiwan and Elpida Memory of Japan, which today is Micron Technology's Japanese plant.

...

But, as Yangtze shows, China is accumulating know-how in 3D chipmaking skills, which will eventually be applicable to advanced logic chips and will help the country avoid dependency on EUV-based miniaturization.

...

However, in the longer run, experts believe China is capable of enhancing its capabilities in all related sectors -- materials, optics, chemical, wafer-fabrication process control, surface inspecting, function testing and so on.

Toshiaki Ikoma, former president of Texas Instruments' Japanese subsidiary and former chief technology officer at Canon, was SMIC's chief technology officer in the mid-2000s. Based on his experience there, he believes China has a sufficient number of capable scientists and engineers to develop its own chipmaking equipment and chip-design software.

...

Hideki Wakabayashi, a Tokyo University of Science professor, says developing the whole supply chain of chipmaking equipment and materials cannot be done quickly. But "there is a possibility for China to become a dominant country in the field in 10-20 years because of its abundance of talent in all science and engineering fields," he said.

...

It may be true that the U.S. tech squeeze has crushed President Xi Jinping's public dream of China supplying 70% of its own semiconductor demand by 2025. In 2019, China fed 16% of its own demand, according to IC Insights. But the U.S. policy may be raising the longer-term probability of China realizing Xi's dream.

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weig2000

Captain
Nikkei article on Chinese semiconductors. Key points

1. TSMC 7nm logic chips actually have transistors which are 18nm wide
2. Flash memory has stabilised at 22-32nm as the optimum transistor size, which doesn't require EUV.
3. If 3D layer technology design improves enough, then the optimal transistor size for logic chips may end up as 22-32nm like Flash.




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Already posted a couple of pages above, in two separate posts.
 

weig2000

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If elected president of the United States, he will negotiate with Beijing, says senior Democratic Party leader

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October 23, 2020

If elected, Joe Biden will try to climb down from the ledge where the Trump Administration finds itself after three years of tech war with China, a senior Democratic Party leader says.

Barney Frank, a former 16-term congressman and ex-chair of the House Finance Committee, told an Asia Times webinar Oct. 22 that nothing will change in America’s rhetoric towards China, but that a Biden Administration would ease some of the Trump Administration’s tech war restrictions in return for Chinese concessions. The US has slapped restrictions on the sale of computer chips to Huawei, ZTE, and other Chinese companies on the Commerce Department’s “entity list,” including chips fabricated by foreign companies with American equipment or software.

Rep. Frank’s estimate is consistent with public statements by former top officials of the Obama Administration who are likely to return to office if Biden wins the Nov. 3 election.

The Trump tech war has failed to slow Huawei’s rollout of 5G mobile broadband, although it has damaged the company’s handset business. Huawei launched its Kirin chipset in 2018 designed by its subsidiary, HiSilicon, to power its high-end smartphones. That ended China’s dependence on Qualcomm chips for mobile phones. China doesn’t have the technology to fabricate the chips, which were outsourced to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation. In July, the Commerce Department restricted Taiwan from making chips for Huawei because it employs US manufacturing equipment.

On Sept. 9 I
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that China could power its 5G base stations with older, less efficient chips that it can make at home or source from a wide variety of suppliers. Huawei and other Chinese companies will fulfill all their orders for 5G equipment, including six million base stations in China alone.

High-end smartphones with computation-intensive features like slow-motion video need the most recent designs with a transistor gate width of just 7 nanometers. The newest chips use energy more efficiently. Only Taiwan and South Korea can produce them; the US chip giant Intel tried but failed, and announced last July that it might abandon the chip fabrication business entirely. Huawei’s 5G base stations, though, run off the power grid rather than batteries, and weigh 25 kilograms, so that the additional size and weight of less-advanced chips do not pose a disadvantage.

TSMC meanwhile has obtained licenses from the Commerce Department to sell Huawei less advanced, or “mature process” chips with a transistor gate width of 28 nanometers and above, according to
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. The Commerce Department hasn’t offered an explanation for its flexibility

The rest of the media has started to catch up. A
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Oct. 22 declared, “China outhustles Trump by stockpiling chips needed for China 5G.” The Bloomberg story added, “Huawei Technologies Co quietly spent months racing to stockpile critical radio chips ahead of Trump administration sanctions, ensuring it can keep supplying Chinese carriers in their $170 billion rollout of 5G technology through at least 2021.” Semiconductor industry insiders have known this for months.

Huawei’s handset business will suffer as the supply of Kirin chips runs out, and Chinese competitors like Xiaomi and Oppo will win some of Huawei’s consumer business. But the handset business is a high-volume, low-margin affair. Huawei’s most profitable divisions are the carrier business (which makes mobile broadband equipment) and the cloud business, which integrates broadband with enterprise software.

China meanwhile has committed massive resources to reach self-sufficiency in semiconductors, hiring up to a fifth of Taiwan’s fabrication engineers to jumpstart domestic production. I quoted a Chinese industry executive in my
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report: “The best-case scenario for the Americans is an agreement on market share [in China], in which case the US companies survive. The scenario at the moment is that it’s just a matter of time before they don’t. China doesn’t have to export – they just have to produce for their own consumption and that wipes out the US companies.” How long that might take is not clear. The myriad of sophisticated technologies required for high-end semiconductor fabrication are not easy to master, but they are well known, and Chinese materials engineers predominate in the industry.

The US national security establishment has made denying semiconductor fabrication technology an article of faith. Congressman Frank told the Asia Times webinar that if Biden wins, “American policy towards China is one of the areas where you will see the least change from the Trump policies.” Biden “here more than in any other area will be constrained by the outrage that most Americans feel about how the way the economy has grown and fewer and fewer people have shared it,” he added.

Nonetheless, Frank continued, a Biden Administration would be willing to ease restrictions on technology exports to China in return for certain concessions from Beijing, most of all to American technology companies. Here is an excerpt from his exchange with AT journalists:

Q: Will Huawei continue Trump’s policy of crushing Huawei’s 5G efforts? That of course has been one of China’s big complaints, that America policy has been “bullying,” and unfair to single out Huawei, their national champion in telecommunications equipment

A: In the first place it’s not easy to do a 180 reversal. And to the extent that this has become a political symbol, Biden will not be able to say, “China’s off the hook, and we can work with them.” I think what you will probably see is an approach that says, Biden will be willing to make some changes if there were something in return. But a largely unilateral rescission of the anti-Huawei policy is politically impossible in America, even if he wanted to do it.

Q: You talked about mutually beneficial relations between the US and China, I’m sure lights went on among many of our listeners, because that’s how the Chinese argue against American protectionism. If you could advise the Chinese government to do three things upon the presumed ascension of the Biden Administration, what would they be?


A: First, stop the restrictions and the theft of American technology. Allow American companies to operate freely in China without having to give up their technology. Treat foreign investors fairly. Second, there is a human rights component, and the two outstanding issues are Hong Kong and the Uyghurs. Moderate that. And third, diminish the military belligerence and the excessive claims in the South China Sea.

It’s much too early to guess at the details of a Sino-American negotiation to de-escalate the tech war. But there is a fundamental difference between the attitudes of Biden and Trump. Trump and his team want to destroy Huawei by whatever means necessary. But as Benjamin Franklin said, “Neither a fortress nor a maidenhead will hold out long after they begin to parley.”

The Obama foreign policy team that probably would return to office in the event of a Biden victory believes in some degree of cooperation with China. Kurt Campbell, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs in Obama’s State Department, and then VP Biden’s national security adviser Jake Sullivan, wrote last year in
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:

China has embraced globalization to become the top trading partner for more than two-thirds of the world’s nations…As a global economic actor, China is central to the prosperity of American allies and partners; its students and tourists flow through global universities and cities; its factories are the forge for much of the world’s advanced technology. This thick web of ties makes it difficult to even start to determine which countries are aligned with the United States and which are aligned with China…Even as China emerges as a more formidable competitor than the Soviet Union, it has also become an essential US partner.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
How long is "eventually"? How long is "a long time"? The answer to your impatient question depends on the answer to those 2 questions.

Hey, im not impatient. It is huawei that needs solutions in a year and half time from now. And just because huawei doesnt say what will be the solution, doesnt mean that they will have one.

I can't and won't to dig up such information.

Ok. Then its only your word here.

The assertion that China won't have the ability to produce them for a long time, is just your assertion.

No, its not just my assertion. Its an assertion based on experts, not only in the web but also on TV.

3D Integration is a new technology. It is promising for China Semiconductor Industry as it is a low cost way to produce advanced Chips.

Perhabs the 3D Integration wont be as easy as some think. See below:

Of course, there is a harsh reality that most of the non-lithography equipment items handling dozens of chipmaking-process stages are made almost exclusively by U.S. and Japanese companies. The thin-layer deposition process, critical in pursuing multilayer 3D chipmaking, is dominated by Applied Materials of the U.S. And surface inspectors of KLA-Tencor of the U.S. are indispensable in completing each such layer.

No matter whether 3D tech is involved, if access to U.S. equipment is blocked, it will disable any chip manufacturer in building or expanding its manufacturing capacity.

Hideki Wakabayashi, a Tokyo University of Science professor, says developing the whole supply chain of chipmaking equipment and materials cannot be done quickly. But "there is a possibility for China to become a dominant country in the field in 10-20 years because of its abundance of talent in all science and engineering fields," he said.

Just like EUV, i think that china will get to 3D chips, but it will take a long time, not enough to save huawei as we know it today IMO, and i think that they will always be at least one step behind others.

a Biden Administration would ease some of the Trump Administration’s tech war restrictions in return for Chinese concessions.

I dont think that china would play on that. Doubtly those concessions would be worth lifting "some restrictions". And besides, even if biden wins now, whats to stop any sucessor of him from walking away from that arrangement?
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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If elected president of the United States, he will negotiate with Beijing, says senior Democratic Party leader

by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
October 23, 2020

If elected, Joe Biden will try to climb down from the ledge where the Trump Administration finds itself after three years of tech war with China, a senior Democratic Party leader says.

Barney Frank, a former 16-term congressman and ex-chair of the House Finance Committee, told an Asia Times webinar Oct. 22 that nothing will change in America’s rhetoric towards China, but that a Biden Administration would ease some of the Trump Administration’s tech war restrictions in return for Chinese concessions. The US has slapped restrictions on the sale of computer chips to Huawei, ZTE, and other Chinese companies on the Commerce Department’s “entity list,” including chips fabricated by foreign companies with American equipment or software.

Rep. Frank’s estimate is consistent with public statements by former top officials of the Obama Administration who are likely to return to office if Biden wins the Nov. 3 election.

The Trump tech war has failed to slow Huawei’s rollout of 5G mobile broadband, although it has damaged the company’s handset business. Huawei launched its Kirin chipset in 2018 designed by its subsidiary, HiSilicon, to power its high-end smartphones. That ended China’s dependence on Qualcomm chips for mobile phones. China doesn’t have the technology to fabricate the chips, which were outsourced to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation. In July, the Commerce Department restricted Taiwan from making chips for Huawei because it employs US manufacturing equipment.

On Sept. 9 I
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that China could power its 5G base stations with older, less efficient chips that it can make at home or source from a wide variety of suppliers. Huawei and other Chinese companies will fulfill all their orders for 5G equipment, including six million base stations in China alone.

High-end smartphones with computation-intensive features like slow-motion video need the most recent designs with a transistor gate width of just 7 nanometers. The newest chips use energy more efficiently. Only Taiwan and South Korea can produce them; the US chip giant Intel tried but failed, and announced last July that it might abandon the chip fabrication business entirely. Huawei’s 5G base stations, though, run off the power grid rather than batteries, and weigh 25 kilograms, so that the additional size and weight of less-advanced chips do not pose a disadvantage.

TSMC meanwhile has obtained licenses from the Commerce Department to sell Huawei less advanced, or “mature process” chips with a transistor gate width of 28 nanometers and above, according to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The Commerce Department hasn’t offered an explanation for its flexibility

The rest of the media has started to catch up. A
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Oct. 22 declared, “China outhustles Trump by stockpiling chips needed for China 5G.” The Bloomberg story added, “Huawei Technologies Co quietly spent months racing to stockpile critical radio chips ahead of Trump administration sanctions, ensuring it can keep supplying Chinese carriers in their $170 billion rollout of 5G technology through at least 2021.” Semiconductor industry insiders have known this for months.

Huawei’s handset business will suffer as the supply of Kirin chips runs out, and Chinese competitors like Xiaomi and Oppo will win some of Huawei’s consumer business. But the handset business is a high-volume, low-margin affair. Huawei’s most profitable divisions are the carrier business (which makes mobile broadband equipment) and the cloud business, which integrates broadband with enterprise software.

China meanwhile has committed massive resources to reach self-sufficiency in semiconductors, hiring up to a fifth of Taiwan’s fabrication engineers to jumpstart domestic production. I quoted a Chinese industry executive in my
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
report: “The best-case scenario for the Americans is an agreement on market share [in China], in which case the US companies survive. The scenario at the moment is that it’s just a matter of time before they don’t. China doesn’t have to export – they just have to produce for their own consumption and that wipes out the US companies.” How long that might take is not clear. The myriad of sophisticated technologies required for high-end semiconductor fabrication are not easy to master, but they are well known, and Chinese materials engineers predominate in the industry.

The US national security establishment has made denying semiconductor fabrication technology an article of faith. Congressman Frank told the Asia Times webinar that if Biden wins, “American policy towards China is one of the areas where you will see the least change from the Trump policies.” Biden “here more than in any other area will be constrained by the outrage that most Americans feel about how the way the economy has grown and fewer and fewer people have shared it,” he added.

Nonetheless, Frank continued, a Biden Administration would be willing to ease restrictions on technology exports to China in return for certain concessions from Beijing, most of all to American technology companies. Here is an excerpt from his exchange with AT journalists:

Q: Will Huawei continue Trump’s policy of crushing Huawei’s 5G efforts? That of course has been one of China’s big complaints, that America policy has been “bullying,” and unfair to single out Huawei, their national champion in telecommunications equipment

A: In the first place it’s not easy to do a 180 reversal. And to the extent that this has become a political symbol, Biden will not be able to say, “China’s off the hook, and we can work with them.” I think what you will probably see is an approach that says, Biden will be willing to make some changes if there were something in return. But a largely unilateral rescission of the anti-Huawei policy is politically impossible in America, even if he wanted to do it.

Q: You talked about mutually beneficial relations between the US and China, I’m sure lights went on among many of our listeners, because that’s how the Chinese argue against American protectionism. If you could advise the Chinese government to do three things upon the presumed ascension of the Biden Administration, what would they be?


A: First, stop the restrictions and the theft of American technology. Allow American companies to operate freely in China without having to give up their technology. Treat foreign investors fairly. Second, there is a human rights component, and the two outstanding issues are Hong Kong and the Uyghurs. Moderate that. And third, diminish the military belligerence and the excessive claims in the South China Sea.

It’s much too early to guess at the details of a Sino-American negotiation to de-escalate the tech war. But there is a fundamental difference between the attitudes of Biden and Trump. Trump and his team want to destroy Huawei by whatever means necessary. But as Benjamin Franklin said, “Neither a fortress nor a maidenhead will hold out long after they begin to parley.”

The Obama foreign policy team that probably would return to office in the event of a Biden victory believes in some degree of cooperation with China. Kurt Campbell, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs in Obama’s State Department, and then VP Biden’s national security adviser Jake Sullivan, wrote last year in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
:

China has embraced globalization to become the top trading partner for more than two-thirds of the world’s nations…As a global economic actor, China is central to the prosperity of American allies and partners; its students and tourists flow through global universities and cities; its factories are the forge for much of the world’s advanced technology. This thick web of ties makes it difficult to even start to determine which countries are aligned with the United States and which are aligned with China…Even as China emerges as a more formidable competitor than the Soviet Union, it has also become an essential US partner.

I would not trust Barney Frank, who has been out of US politics for almost a decade, he is not a political insider, he is not part of future Biden admin, he does not know what Biden admin is going to do anymore than you or me.

He is just the most convenient person for the interviewer, you can take what he said with a grain of salt.
 
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