Chinese Military Exports (Land Systems)

siegecrossbow said:

This seems to the logic —

When western weapons malfunction or fail — the fault lies with operator inexperience or improper maintenance.

When Chinese or Russian weapons malfunction or fail — cause its junk.

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Western heuristic based thinking. It's everywhere once you start noticing. The "rule of thumb" is that when a white american male commits a mass shooting, then they must have been "mentally ill". If a non-white does the same thing, then "their culture is poisoned". You'll see people online make fun of Chinese "chabuduo" thinking when in reality Chinese thinking delves much much deeper into the search for truth when confronting problems or questions rather than signing off at a surface level explanation that confirms biases.

Sorry to go off on a philosophical tangent that is not really adherent to the purpose of this thread.

Tomboy said:

Not a tank gun? Also, who knows what happened with this one, Ukrainian guns are also in combat for much longer. Find me a western tank that suffered the same damage after only a measly 200 something rounds being fired. Most I've seen is banana peeling due to FOD.

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An exploded barrel is an exploded barrel, doesn't matter if it is on a tank or not, and doesn't matter if the barrel ended up like banana peel, because at the of the day barrels shouldn't explode. You mistakeningly assumed Western equipments don't suffer catastrophic failure and is proven wrong, just like you assumed Western tanks don't need maintenance and were proven wrong.

Tomboy said:

Even if this is 100 percent the Thai's fault, this incident exposed the fact that VT-4's gun barrel could only handle 500 HE shells, which ironically are possibly the round with the lowest chamber pressure. Compared to western guns with 1500 EFC (Which normally means the highest standard charge used) barrel life is a terrible look considering these VT-4s aren't exactly cheap.

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You should instead ask why Thai military ordered the tank with full knowledge of said specification. Perhaps the Thai also know there isn't much credibility behind western claims and numbers.

Engineer said:

An exploded barrel is an exploded barrel, doesn't matter if it is on a tank or not, and doesn't matter if the barrel ended up like banana peel, because at the of the day barrels shouldn't explode. You mistakeningly assumed Western equipments don't suffer catastrophic failure and is proven wrong, just like you assumed Western tanks don't need maintenance and were proven wrong.

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LMAO, when did I say that. I said western tanks can atleast go a few days without extensive maintenance and not suffer catastrophic failure.


Even if we blame everything on the Thai and/or say this is a fluke which understandably happens to everyone including western equipment. The fact that Chinese equipment has much worse lifespan is something to consider about.

Engineer said:

You should instead ask why Thai military ordered the tank with full knowledge of said specification. Perhaps the Thai also know there isn't much credibility behind western claims and numbers.

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Wow sure, instead of finding issues with ourselves just say the everyone else is lying. Sounds sure what western copers do alot. Also, considering the only other competitor was Ukrainian Oplot, the bar isn't very high. Even then the Thai initially ordered the Oplot but only due to delivery issues cancelled and bought VT-4.

Tomboy said:

LMAO, when did I say that. I said western tanks can atleast go a few days without extensive maintenance and not suffer catastrophic failure.

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So how do you explain Western equipment with banana peels instead of gun barrels then? Are you plain wrong or does the West have shit maintenance as well? LOL!

Tomboy said:

Even if we blame everything on the Thai and/or say this is a fluke which understandably happens to everyone including western equipment. The fact that Chinese equipment has much worse lifespan is something to consider about.

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This is the same stupid talking point that the West have about Russian equipment. When Western equipment got sent to Ukraine, the supposedly better lifespan (and other superiority) didn't materialize into military success. Western equipment have longer lifespan — but at what cost? At a cost that is now causing Europe to go bankrupt!

Tomboy said:

Wow sure, instead of finding issues with ourselves just say the everyone else is lying. Sounds sure what western copers do alot. Also, considering the only other competitor was Ukrainian Oplot, the bar isn't very high. Even then the Thai initially ordered the Oplot but only due to delivery issues cancelled and bought VT-4.

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The difference in this situation is that the West is known to lie. Are you sure you are not a western coper vehemently defending the idea of western equipment superiority?

Everyone should take a chill pill. Just wait for more info.

Nevermore said:

Let's stay calm about these public opinions. In recent years, U.S. F-16s, F-18s, F-35s, and various drones have crashed numerous times, yet I haven't seen many people dismiss the U.S. military as a paper tiger. Similarly, the downing of Rafales and Su-30s by J-10Cs doesn't affect our objective assessment of these aircraft's performance. Regarding the tank barrel explosion incident, we should await the subsequent investigation report before making judgments. The recent backlash in public opinion stems from years of Western propaganda.

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United States didn't need to proof anything because they love to bomb some herders at the desert. China can also do that, by bombing Taiwan, Japan and Philippine. But is that what they want?

PLAN Otaku said:

By this logic, then China should not export any weapons. Do you really have confidence those new potential buyers of J-10CE will not crash their planes in the most stupid way? Ultimately, the people using those weapons are major factors affecting the outcome of battles.

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That depend. China exports weapons have a lot of benefits. The problem is that Norinco after sales service is really-really bad. They ignore the complain from the buyers. And that's including my country military. We bought an CIWS Type 730, If I'm not mistakenly remember. And it was malfunction, kill one of our soldiers. We complained to Norinco, but no respond at all. The military was angry. So they open the weapon by themselves and found that the broken parts was a copy of Russian CIWS. Because of the grudge, they bring it to online via media social in my country. Claiming that China weapon is a junk. And now, Norinco VT-4 MBT also has a trouble. So I think the problem is not China should not export, but to solve this VT-4 problem better for publicity. But knowing Norinco History, there are a great deal of chance that they will stay silence and ignore the complain. Thus bring the negative publication in Thailand.

You have to remember, Thailand and Indonesia are in South East Asia. Close to Taiwan, Japan, and Philippine. And you know it right now, China has a political tit for tat with Japan. China did quite many things. Like conducting military training near japan. Of course, you won't spend million of RMB just for nothing. It is China model of Gunboat Diplomacy. To strike the Japanese people heart and make them retract their statement. But because of this VT-4, suddenly those billion RMB will wasted for nothing. Those gun boat diplomacy won't give any effect to Japan anymore.

So China doesn't need to stop their export. They just need to push Norinco to settle this problem, profesionally. Or if they can't just arrest their boss for corruption.

It will have to be a real war, and China must win it to fix this image problem. There is no other way.

The J-10CE performance has not helped; moreover, there are several other weapons like the S-26T, KS-1C, and FK-3 that still need to be proven.

Wrong thread, deleted.

1) Notice the rather clean two holes in the optics and laser warning, which can't be explained by barrel burst. Maybe the whole narrative was misled (Ayi wrote a piece at Guancha suggests overrun and briefly captured) from the start. Let's wait for the official investigation.

2) Pakistan (defencepk) apparently can't be bothered. They say it is the same main gun used on the older tank, which they have tested well. And they already produce the main gun locally (97% indigenous). Pakistan uses over 1000 of this.

Has this been posted before? , I'm not certain of its origin but it seems to belong to a Thai source.

Translates Text (ChatGPT) :

3. Failure process of barrel life

As the number of rounds fired increases, certain changes begin to occur. For example, in the initial stage, cracks (network-like cracks), pits, or surface erosion appear. Chromium erosion first appears in the throat area of the gun barrel. Subsequently, the damage continues to develop progressively. After firing approximately 200 rounds, the erosion of pits becomes more pronounced, and wear in the throat region increases. There is also a tendency for erosion on other surface areas of the barrel to develop further.

Severe cracking and an increasing number of network-like cracks will appear. Even erosion marks in the form of impacts or pitting will spread across areas of the surface that are not chromium-plated. As these erosion patterns on the barrel surface develop, ballistic performance deteriorates. For example, the muzzle velocity and pressure inside the barrel gradually decrease, causing shooting accuracy (shot dispersion) to progressively decline.

Eventually, the external ballistics of the projectile become abnormal. At this stage, the gun barrel loses its normal ballistic performance and must be replaced.