Chinese Engine Development

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Is the QC-280 production fully localized in china? i read once that some parts were still produced in ukraine.
Yes. Some components used to be from Ukraine but I don't think this has been the case for the past 5 years.

What more, the QC-280 isn't localized but the Ukrainian GT-25000 is. QC-280 is a development of GT-25000 localized - with QC280 providing improvements in power output. AFAIK, all components are Indigenous.


PS : Do you think US would sit idle, with the new ally Ukraine in its kitty, to support China's Naval expansion? I say China got past all that in the nick of time.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Yes. Some components used to be from Ukraine but I don't think this has been the case for the past 5 years.

What more, the QC-280 isn't localized but the Ukrainian GT-25000 is. QC-280 is a development of GT-25000 localized - with QC280 providing improvements in power output. AFAIK, all components are Indigenous.


PS : Do you think US would sit idle, with the new ally Ukraine in its kitty, to support China's Naval expansion? I say China got past all that in the nick of time.
I really don't understand how China can lag behind Ukraine in engine area which is like a former province of defunct Soviet empire. Like is Ukraine really that good?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
I really don't understand how China can lag behind Ukraine in engine area which is like a former province of defunct Soviet empire. Like is Ukraine really that good?
Extremely good. A huge chunk of Soviet GDP went into Defence industry. You are looking at the fruits of 50 years of ideology backed spending spree. No one questions the competitiveness of Soviet technology.

Let's not get drunk in the propaganda barrage of certain western nations here.

Edit : Ukraine retained a significant chunk of these GT, Aviation industries. Antonov, Zorya Mashproekt, Ivechenko Progress, Motor Sich are all big names. Too big in fact.
 
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sequ

Captain
Registered Member
New video about Chinese engine development
Overcome all obstacles! Exploring the development history of China's aero engine
The main content of this program: Aeroengine is known as the "heart of the aircraft", and every major revolutionary progress made in the aviation field is closely related to the technological breakthroughs and advancements of aeroengines. The research and development of China's aeroengine was developed on a blank basis after the founding of New China. From the initial imitation, improvement, and modification to the independent design and manufacture of high-performance aeroengines, we have been overcoming obstacles along the way.
Any specs mentioned in the video about the WS-10?
 

caudaceus

Senior Member
Registered Member
I really don't understand how China can lag behind Ukraine in engine area which is like a former province of defunct Soviet empire. Like is Ukraine really that good?
Seems China's MechE accomplishments trail ChemE and Electric/Electronic Engineering. Lack of consumer goods using MechE perhaps?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Seems China's MechE accomplishments trail ChemE and Electric/Electronic Engineering. Lack of consumer goods using MechE perhaps?
Not really mechanical engineering machinery are subjected to high temperature, friction and high centrifugal forces, vibration, fatigue, creep, wear and tear. So it depend on material science, precision machining, skill, design ingenuity , access to precision machinery like CNC. Trial and error over time. Which take a long time to master. No wonder only old tech country like Germany, Japan, US, UK, French are the leader in this field.

There is no way of skipping the process So China has to go thru the same learning curve that take time. But now it seem they overcome all the challenge and produce a mature maybe not the best But very good Gas Turbine
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's materials engineering when it comes to engines and manufacturing engineering. It is truly impressive, exclusive sciences that are not taught. Most of it is proprietary technology held only by a few suppliers in maybe 5 nations. The US and UK are the main top dogs when it comes to this (both the materials and manufacturing of GT and turbofans). Russia, Ukraine, and France are overall second tier compared to US/UK. China is a recent arrival and trying hard to reach that second tier category. It has more funding than Russia and Ukraine but not the vast decades of experience and building those industries like the other five nations. It has now got 10 years running record for WS-10 which is good and iterations of that base platform. The platform's core design is an American/French engine CFM which China produced components for? correct me if I'm wrong. But no one shows the materials and it cannot be reverse engineered unless you have the production methods. Even then you may not have the same production machinery and tools.

That was 1990s to early 2000s China. Now if it can put into service the WS-20 and CJ-1000 along with WS-15 and WS-19, it would be easily in that second tier category. No one taught China how to build the WS-10, how to fabricate its components, the tools and machinery used in the processes. It was all an iterative improvement on past lessons. The WS-10 wasn't China's first turbofan although it was the first domestically engineered and made one despite its core having a similar design based on a CFM HBR engine.

Japan may have an overall better technology base than China when it comes to this. They're particularly good at GTs but military turbofans haven't been given much attention. Ukraine was the centre of military propulsion industry in USSR outside of Russia. It accommodated tank engine design bureaus and manufacturers, helicopter engines, rocket engines, and of course fixed wing aircraft engines.

Materials science and manufacturing engineering is often quite a lot more iterative and demands time invested, experimentation, failures from experimentation/testing, and breakthroughs. No one shares a shred of information, rarely even to allies. Sold finished products don't count and reverse engineering a finished engine in terms of materials is like uncooking an egg. With China's mastering of single crystal blades, then hollow blades, super alloys used in engines, and various manufacturing technologies, it's really not missing anything from Ukraine in the materials and manufacturing side. The Motor Sich purchase could secure a particular small turbofan for China's trainer jet but Russia has an alternative product which can be bought. If not, China would just need to spend the time to develop one. It's not a matter of whether or not it could but a matter of how much time it would cost. Motor Sich's helicopter engines and HBR turbofans could also hold benefit for China since those fields seemingly have not been given as much resource as engines for fighters.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Japan does ok with engines. Not stellar but ok. They have a pretty modern regular combustion engine industry. For example they designed and produced the Type 10 tank engine and transmission. With regards to aircraft engines, they made the engines for the Kawasaki P-1, and the IHI XF-9 engine prototype for the F-3. They make their own rocket engines like the LE-5 and LE-9.
They also produce a lot of engines under license or just straight out acquire them but they could be doing worse.

In the civilian sector they produce large gas turbines for power plant applications - among the best in the world.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Japan does ok with engines. Not stellar but ok. They have a pretty modern regular combustion engine industry. For example they designed and produced the Type 10 tank engine and transmission. With regards to aircraft engines, they made the engines for the Kawasaki P-1, and the IHI XF-9 engine prototype for the F-3. They make their own rocket engines like the LE-5 and LE-9.
They also produce a lot of engines under license or just straight out acquire them but they could be doing worse.

In the civilian sector they produce large gas turbines for power plant applications - among the best in the world.

Yep. I think Japan still has an overall better industrial base for engines than China does but its military engine programs are not as well funded and spread out as China's. If Japan didn't have a military budget cap, they would be tier 1 for sure.
 
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