Chinese Engine Development

Nx4eu

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Alfa_Particle said:
The range was always 12,000-13,000 kgf/117-127 kN, which is what I expect the actual production machine is expected to produce. You're looking at the REQUIREMENTS.

And I would argue it most likely does use superior technology to the F135 given its T4 is only 160 K off within a significantly smaller form factor. And I fully expect the WS-19's to run a higher theta-break too, along with many other measures that boost its thrust curves.


IT'S A 3-5-1-1!!!
View attachment 162083

(I hope they drop the VIGV to since the tech demo looked to has it... But this already looks very good)


And it is. It's miles clear of the F414-GE-400 and better than the EJ200, which is an extremely formidable feat by itself already. Even if the EJ230 materialises somehow these current specs are still on par or even better.

And you'll have to remember that those are the REQUIREMENTS. The range I received was a calculated estimate of what the actual engine produces.


You'll have to remember that it's a HUGE engine with significantly more space for more (robust) cooling. It's not really a useful comparison, if not misleading.

In fact, running 2100 K is already extremely impressive given it's doing that in a RD-33-sized package and expected to run a much higher theta-break.


See above.
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Calibrate your enthusiasm.

I think it's best to not get super excited because some people read you the wrong way and start being unsatisfied by China's achievements. We are all spoiled by the rapid succession of achievements from China.

Let us remember just 8 years ago J-20 had to enter service with some pitiful AL-31F engines, while here the J-35A immediately gets to enter service with it's intended WS-19 engines. Yet some people are still unsatisfied.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Nx4eu said:
Calibrate your enthusiasm.

I think it's best to not get super excited because some people read you the wrong way and start being unsatisfied by China's achievements. We are all spoiled by the rapid succession of achievements from China.

Let us remember just 8 years ago J-20 had to enter service with some pitiful AL-31F engines, while here the J-35A immediately gets to enter service with it's intended WS-19 engines. Yet some people are still unsatisfied.
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Eh to be quite honest if these specs are real this is actually a very impressive engine and its growth margins should be quite good.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

General
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Nx4eu said:
Calibrate your enthusiasm.
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The best phrase to arise from a Disney funded show in a long time.

latenlazy said:
Eh to be quite honest if these specs are real this is actually a very impressive engine and its growth margins should be quite good.
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I think it is a case of using minimally emotive language and trying to view numbers conservatively, especially for "new" engines.

I think I said a while back that new engines should only be considered as "arriving" if they are in mass production for all new serial airframes of a given type produced, for two successive years without interruption or issues.

It's a bit pedantic but we've been burned too many times by preemptive or over enthusiastic engine predictions for us to not have a high threshold.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Blitzo said:
The best phrase to arise from a Disney funded show in a long time.



I think it is a case of using minimally emotive language and trying to view numbers conservatively, especially for "new" engines.

I think I said a while back that new engines should only be considered as "arriving" if they are in mass production for all new serial airframes of a given type produced, for two successive years without interruption or issues.

It's a bit pedantic but we've been burned too many times by preemptive or over enthusiastic engine predictions for us to not have a high threshold.
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These technical details if they are accurate are in fact quite impressive *objectively* speaking and when the *objective* details are impressive I see no reason to equivocate about them. I make no comments about anything else with regard to the WS-19, just the parameters of the engine detailed in this document leak. For me this particular point of discussion is a technical matter.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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latenlazy said:
These technical details if they are accurate are in fact quite impressive *objectively* speaking and when the *objective* details are impressive I see no reason to equivocate about them. I make no comments about anything else with regard to the WS-19, just the parameters of the engine detailed in this document leak. For me this particular point of discussion is a technical matter.
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The technical details of PRC aeroengines, tbh have left something to be desired in recent history as well, whether it is in terms of accuracy, or eventuating into a finished product that we can verify.

The objective numbers imo only matter if and when they are able to put them into production and demonstrate them in a manner similar to what I described as a threshold for "arriving" meeting the target characteristics.

Until then, I tend to view them as ballpark figures.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Blitzo said:
The technical details of PRC aeroengines, tbh have left something to be desired in recent history as well, whether it is in terms of accuracy, or eventuating into a finished product that we can verify.

The objective numbers imo only matter if and when they are able to put them into production and demonstrate them in a manner similar to what I described as a threshold for "arriving" meeting the target characteristics.

Until then, I tend to view them as ballpark figures.
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Eh, I don’t see the point behind that kind of handwringing. We can discuss design when the questions are about design and we can discuss production when the discussions are about production. The point of discussion should be to explore the details of new developments. The standard for discussion you’re proposing only make sense if your primary interest is to preemptively regulate clout harvesting, which is quite beside the point of substantive engagement, and in this case maybe even counterproductive to it.

Either way, this isn’t the late 2000s when the R&D process was done with haste and a roughshod procedure. If an engine is going into production we can assume safely that it’s met its design requirements. If there’s a problem the engine won’t go into production. I don’t see why there needs to be extra caveats beyond that basic rule of thumb. Doesn’t need to be more complicated than that. In the meantime that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t do performance appraisals of whatever details we do get so long as it’s based on objective evidence.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Nx4eu said:
Calibrate your enthusiasm.

I think it's best to not get super excited because some people read you the wrong way and start being unsatisfied by China's achievements. We are all spoiled by the rapid succession of achievements from China.

Let us remember just 8 years ago J-20 had to enter service with some pitiful AL-31F engines, while here the J-35A immediately gets to enter service with it's intended WS-19 engines. Yet some people are still unsatisfied.
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J-35 first flight was in 2012 as FC-31. its a very old airframe actually. FC-31 basically languished in limbo for 1 decade.
 
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