Chinese Engine Development

Tomboy said:

That 2050K is the reheat exhaust temp not combustion chamber exhaust temp which is only 1850K according to the spec sheet

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That doesn't seem to be what the spec says. Do you actually have evidence from professional Chinese writings that's what they mean? Because it clearly says outlet temperature.

On a side note, your constant incessant complaining on this thread is getting tiring.

Tomboy said:

I mean sure but 1850K and 2260K is a massive difference, if lets say WS-19 was at 2200K or something in the ballpark as you say it would be more acceptable. Unless you think China has magically efficient turbines.

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qwerty3173 said:

Nah, 1850K is the burner outlet temperature, which is practically the same with the turbine inlet.

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The excerpt from the first image gave a range of TIT of 1950-2100K.

Nx4eu said:

The excerpt from the first image gave a range of TIT of 1950-2100K.
View attachment 162077

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This literally says "Combustion chamber outlet temperature" of 1850K not turbine outlet. Are you sure this is even from the same document

Tomboy said:

View attachment 162078
This literally says "Combustion chamber outlet temperature" of 1850K not turbine outlet. Are you sure this is even from the same document

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Except the text I pulled from the images before literally says the engine in question has a turbine inlet temperature of 1950K-2100K. And is not dancing around the term with "Combustion chamber outlet temperature."

So what can we take from these two examples.
The Turbine Inlet Temperature is 1950K-2100K
The Combustion chamber outlet temperature is 1850K

So we can either Assume that the paper means the Combustion chamber outlet temperature = TIT or that when they actually literally stated the TIT = TIT.

And yes Im sure that these are from the same document, did you even read it.
The Chart is referred to as Table 2-1. And the image I used that stated the TIT referred at the bottom of Table 2-1, not to mention the page numbers.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Alfa was hyping F-414EPE/EJ-270 stats. Compared to that, these numbers are decidedly middling.

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Tomboy said:

People were hyping it up to be a super EJ270 with the most cutting edge technology comparable to WS-15(Which is supposedly the best engine until next gen VCE comes out).

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I think perhaps being more specific would be beneficial in future, because the term "people" conveyed it as if such a prospect were a widely held belief or community consensus.

Nx4eu said:

Except the text I pulled from the images before literally says the engine in question has a turbine inlet temperature of 1950K-2100K. And is not dancing around the term with "Combustion chamber outlet temperature."

So what can we take from these two examples.
The Turbine Inlet Temperature is 1950K-2100K
The Combustion chamber outlet temperature is 1850K

So we can either Assume that the paper means the Combustion chamber outlet temperature = TIT or that when they actually literally stated the TIT = TIT.

And yes Im sure that these are from the same document, did you even read it.
The Chart is referred to as Table 2-1. And the image I used that stated the TIT referred at the bottom of Table 2-1, not to mention the page numbers.

View attachment 162079
View attachment 162080

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IDK about you but if you read the document, you'd find that the first part was talking about the requirements and chart 2-1 is what they've submitted as part of their first draft proposal when factoring into current technology and their maturity. Atleast this is my interpretation.

Tomboy said:

IDK about you but if you read the document, you'd find that the first part was talking about the requirements and chart 2-1 is what they've submitted as part of their first draft proposal when factoring into current technology and their maturity. Atleast this is my interpretation.

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If they hit the same thrust requirements (the requirement that matters most) at a lower TIT I’m not sure what the problem is? This would actually suggest a very performant and capable engine architecture with very good future growth potential?

You typically do not redesign the engine core.

gelgoog said:

You typically do not redesign the engine core.

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I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at?

Tomboy said:

If this is WS-19 than it is very underwelming compared to what we were expecting, isn't the expected thrust up to 127kN and superior technology to F-135?

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The range was always 12,000-13,000 kgf/117-127 kN, which is what I expect the actual production machine is expected to produce. You're looking at the REQUIREMENTS.

And I would argue it most likely does use superior technology to the F135 given its T4 is only 160 K off within a significantly smaller form factor. And I fully expect the WS-19's to run a higher theta-break too, along with many other measures that boost its thrust curves.

ACuriousPLAFan said:

More (related) information on said engine, posted by @Rational314159 on Twitter:

View attachment 162072

Intermediate thrust: 70kN
Afterburning thrust: 110kN
3-5-1-1 Configuration
Bypass ratio: 0.5
Intermediate fuel consumption: 0.8kg/daN/hr
Afterburning fuel consumption: 1.6kg/daN/hr

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IT'S A 3-5-1-1!!!


(I hope they drop the VIGV to since the tech demo looked to has it... But this already looks very good)

Tomboy said:

People were hyping it up to be a super EJ270 with the most cutting edge technology comparable to WS-15(Which is supposedly the best engine until next gen VCE comes out).

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And it is. It's miles clear of the F414-GE-400 and better than the EJ200, which is an extremely formidable feat by itself already. Even if the EJ230 materialises somehow these current specs are still on par or even better.

And you'll have to remember that those are the REQUIREMENTS. The range I received was a calculated estimate of what the actual engine produces.

Tomboy said:

F-135 is at 2260K and is decade old technology

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You'll have to remember that it's a HUGE engine with significantly more space for more (robust) cooling. It's not really a useful comparison, if not misleading.

In fact, running 2100 K is already extremely impressive given it's doing that in a RD-33-sized package and expected to run a much higher theta-break.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Alfa was hyping F-414EPE/EJ-270 stats. Compared to that, these numbers are decidedly middling.

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See above.