Chinese Engine Development


latenlazy

Brigadier
So, there are two different arguments I am seeing from yourself and latenlazy to explain this, both of which are relatively plausible.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that year by year the number of test production engines built per year is reducing as they incrementally approach final production spec engines -- i.e.: that the yearly produced "XWS-15s" is reducing and that this company is projecting the number of "XWS-15s" it will build, of the ones that other companies will also build.

Latenlazy's argument, is that year by year the number of overall engines built is fixed, but that the percentages represent the proportion of value/work of each engine that the company expects to contribute to, which would explain why the engines per year is not increasing but the percentage is.


To me, both seem reasonable explanations, but what is still confusing is that of annual engine production being fixed for the whole six years of both types. Considering where we know WS-15 (and also WS-19) are in their development, it would be somewhat surprising for the number of WS-15s projected to be fixed or even to reduce going forwards for six whole years. Given both of these engines will likely be in development and testing in this phase, I wonder if the projected number of WS-15s to be built later on in those 6 years may be subject to change depending on the results of tests and development in the early 2020s.
I proposed the idea earlier that production could be fixed to five per year because it follows CAC’s test schedule for a new designation. It may be that a J-20B will see more changes than just an engine swap, and that the bottleneck here is not the engine production but the test schedule for the plane.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I proposed the idea earlier that production could be fixed to five per year because it follows CAC’s test schedule for a new designation. It may be that a J-20B will see more changes than just an engine swap, and that the bottleneck here is not the engine production but the test schedule for the plane.

That is plausible but if past production of prototypes of a new variant of an aircraft (or even wholly new aircraft types) is anything to go by, and if you are suggesting the engine production rate has a relationship with the production of new prototypes, well then we should see both to start from a lower number and creep upwards over the years as the aircraft progresses through its development.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I dug this up from the beginning of the year
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-engine-development.t252/page-497#post-540974
Going by the post date we can say that Dr. Liu Daxiang predicted design certification within 3 to 5 years from mid-2018, i.e., mid-2021 to mid-2023. I believe there's another certification (production certification?) that takes about 2 years - so we can put mass production starting from mid-2023 to mid-2025. If we squint and look to the side we might say the document jives with the most pessimistic estimate. Still, I expect production numbers to be a lot higher than 5 engines per year (or 12.5 you calculated or 10) even before mass production. There should be closer to 10 times that many engines even in LRIP.

Just about the highlighted part. Yes, there are different certifications, at least these two. WS-10 received its production certification years after we have seen it being mounted on operational aircraft. I think this is posted in this forum too. The date of production certification could be even after the serial production has started so long as the procedure is set.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
That is plausible but if past production of prototypes of a new variant of an aircraft (or even wholly new aircraft types) is anything to go by, and if you are suggesting the engine production rate has a relationship with the production of new prototypes, well then we should see both to start from a lower number and creep upwards over the years as the aircraft progresses through its development.
I’m extrapolating from what we saw with the 201X series here, not LRIP. But it’s just a theory I’m casually throwing into the ring.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Major
Registered Member
Just about the highlighted part. Yes, there are different certifications, at least these two. WS-10 received its production certification years after we have seen it being mounted on operational aircraft. I think this is posted in this forum too. The date of production certification could be even after the serial production has started so long as the procedure is set.
So mass production can begin immediately after design certification so long as the production process is fixed?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Just some amateurish questions/ponderings
1. What exactly is the role of Shenyang Liming Factory? As I understand, they manufacture turbo fans. But for that they depend on other sources (for Raw materials as well as for Machinery).
2. What if Hebei subsidiary is a supplier of Machines that make the machines? What if, like someone said, this subsidiary makes the Machines that make the casing of the engines?
3. What if "5" is the number of production lines for WS-15?

The more interesting news is that of WS-19.There has been very little discussions/information regarding these engines. It could be a gamechanger engine that could see wide applications.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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On Twitter, Oedosoldier has provided some context, stating that the document is an industry analysis of a metal manufacturing company, and that the actual document states the company's real committed agreement is only to supply parts for WS-10s for the next two years, and that other production numbers are only speculative.

The only useful part of the document is confirmation of the model numbers of the different engines.

Again, further context will be useful and/or if anyone eventually finds the whole entire document to be analyzed.


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Errys

New Member
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RTR33IWI%20%281%29.jpg

Image: Reuters

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China's air force could be about to get a big boost.
by
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Key point: China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

Chinese engineering has become so advanced that German jet engines could soon get a major boost from China.
Officials in China have begun talks to
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sophisticated aerospace technology and manufacturing equipment to Germany for the production of high-performance jet engines.

As China moves to rapidly build its commercial and military aviation industry, the nation has made significant engineering breakthroughs, most notably in turbine blades, which convert the heat from fuel combustion into thrust. Turbine blades are one of the most critical components of an airplane, determining a jet engine’s safety, power and endurance.

Engineers in China have developed new processes that can make lighter and stronger blades using a hollow structure as well as single-crystal alloys that can withstand high temperatures and a special coating to facilitate cooling. These advances mean Chinese-made turbine blades are able to withstand temperatures several hundred degrees Celsius higher than the melting point of metallic alloys.
These advances are at the center of a possible sale to Germany along with manufacturing equipment that uses lasers to drill ultra-fine holes in turbine blades to keep blades cool by increasing air flow.

“Our machine has outperformed [Germany’s] on some benchmarks,” an anonymous source involved in the negotiations
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the South China Morning Post. “The Germans have seen and grown interested in our technology.”

Discussions for the sale are still in the early stages, but even the possibility of an agreement with Germany, which
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the world’s first production-ready jet engine and has long been revered for its design and manufacturing prowess, is a major victory for China as it seeks to shift its reputation away from cheaply made knockoffs to high-end innovation.

Aerospace is one of the key sectors of the
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” initiative, which calls for massive government investment to create thriving self-sufficient domestic industries. But long before the initiative was announced, China has been hard at work developing domestically-produced military aircraft.

In 2011, China
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the world with the J-20, the nation’s first stealth fighter meant to rival America’s F-22 Raptor. With the J-20, China became only the second nation after the United States with a tactical stealth jet in service.

Just three years later, China
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the J-31 stealth multirole fighter jet, which looks remarkably like the American-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Analysts
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the Chinese built the J-31 using stolen F-35 blueprints.

China’s fifth-generation fighters currently rely on Russian engines, but recent breakthroughs have given the nation the ability to manufacture their own. In September, images
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China had built a stealth engine for the J-20 equipped with serrated afterburner nozzles and interior flaps to help minimize its radar signature.

As China turns its attention to commercial airliners, it is only a matter of time before it begins to produce jet engines for commercial use.

In China’s rapid rise, it has previously turned to German aerospace companies to gain intellectual property and industrial know-how. In 2013, China
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Germany’s Thielert Aircraft Engines after it filed for bankruptcy. The agreement included Thielert’s technology as well as their manufacturing facilities and equipment.

More recently, China has set its sights on
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Cotesa, an innovative German aerospace manufacturer that supplies parts for Airbus and Boeing. But the deal is currently on hold pending a
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by the German government under new rules that grant the state more authority to block foreign takeovers.

The rules were passed in the midst of growing concerns of Chinese companies acquiring German and other EU companies operating in sensitive industries like aerospace, robotics and computer chips.

China’s plan to supply Germany with jet engine turbine blade technology is likely to face similar hurdles as Germany partners with Pratt & Whitney, General Electric and other American engine manufacturers. Even if German authorities approve the deal, the sale could still be blocked by the U.S. government which considers jet engine manufacturers as strategic domestic companies.
Regardless of whether this deal succeeds or not, it is apparent that China is quickly becoming an elite player in the Jet Age.

Eugene K. Chow writes on foreign policy and military affairs. His work has been published in Foreign Policy, The Week and The Diplomat. This first appeared in January 2018.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Does anyone have any English literature on the two topics discussed in above article? I recall watching and reading it in Chinese but never seen it in English.

The two topics was the Rolls Royce contract where a Chinese team developed a novel manufacturing process to create a world first and the second the the laser drilling technology.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
If you read the links in that article you will find it is recycling original sources from almost 1 year ago, I remember the reports were posted here back then and apparently there have been no new developments in the mean time. It's worth noting that laser drilling for blade cooling holes is a relatively established technology - nobody's surprised anymore that China manufactures competitive CNC mills at this point, so I'm not sure whether it's so noteworthy that general progress in Chinese machine tools now extends to this kind as well.

The other (not mentioned in the above article) was TiAl LPT blades for RR, IIRC. This is a relatively new technology, but common on current and next generation engines (LEAP, GTF, PD-14, GEnx, GE9X, Trent XWB). Not sure what the world first was supposed to be in this field, but surprisingly at least the CJ-1000AX demonstrator was stated not to have TiAl blades AFAIK.
 

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