Chinese Engine Development

LesAdieux

Junior Member
I wonder if this means that current projects (WS-15, WS-13, etc) are in trouble and that china has initiated a crash program to try to jumpstart research.

there're lots of similar reports in the chinese meadia. I don't think it's about a big crash program, one program wouldn't cost that much anyway.

the message is that China will put great emphasis on engine development, and put big money into it. China has made big progress in recent years, but still got a long way to go.
 

escobar

Brigadier
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emdrive.jpg


Researchers in China say that they've successfully managed to test an engine that runs on electricity, requires no propellant and produces no exhaust. It's called the EmDrive, and it's able to convert microwave energy directly into thrust inside a sealed chamber. Oh, it's totally silent and highly efficient, too. If it seems too good to be true, well, you're not the only one who feels that way. But the researchers have a prototype that apparently works, and they've just published a paper detailing it.

Before we get into the mechanics of the EmDrive, let's give it some context. An engine is something that converts energy into motion. There are lots and lots of different ways of doing this, but let's take a look at a very simple one: a rocket engine. With a rocket engine, you've got a big tube with some explosive stuff (propellant) in it. When you launch the rocket and the propellant combusts, it tries to expand in all directions at once, but because it's stuck in a tube, it can only make it out the back. This means that the force that explosion exerts on the tube is symmetrical in every direction except for the back and the front, and as the propellant escapes out the back, the rocket gets pushed forward.

The basic principle here is that there's a reaction going on: stuff you don't care about (the exhaust) going one way pushes something that you do care about (the rocket) the other way. The reason that this works is a fundamental law of physics: Newton's Third Law, to be exact, which says that all forces exist in pairs. It also works because of the Law of Conservation of Momentum, which says that in a closed system, total momentum (which is the product of both mass and velocity) is constant. In other words, you can't have a rocket that moves forward without something moving backwards, and you also can't have a rocket that moves forward if you seal up the back end.

This is why the engine that scientists in China are claming to have successfully tested is so crazy: According to the fundamental laws of physics, the universe should not allow it to work.

The basic operating principle of this engine was conceptualized by a British dude named Roger Shawyer several decades ago, and has been in the news over the last few years (including on DVICE) as Shawyer built prototypes. The EmDrive itself is simply a microwave resonating cavity in the form of a closed, truncated cone. You fire up a big electrically-powered microwave generator and start beaming microwaves inside this thing, and the microwaves bounce around all over the place, exerting radiation pressure on the inside of the cavity.

Here's a diagram we found on New Scientist:

25681401.jpg


Now, if we believe those pesky laws of physics, we'd say that the EmDrive won't be able to move anywhere, because the energy imparted by the microwaves bouncing off of the inside of the EmDrive will cancel out. There's no "exhaust."

However, if we believe Shawyer, the EmDrive is in fact able to extert a small amount of thrust that propels it towards the large side of the cone. Shawyer says this happens because inside the resonating cavity, the velocity of the microwaves changes significantly as the cavity diameter varies. The velocity changes enough, in fact, to exert a larger force on the larger end of the cavity, and a smaller force on the smaller end of the cavity, resulting in net thrust. Shawyer argues that this isn't a violation of anything, because you have to treat the electromagnetic wave itself as acting in a different reference frame than the cavity, in accordance with Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, meaning that the system is actually not closed.

A lot of people are skeptical about a lot of the physics here, and Shawyer has been called a nutcase by some people with extensive math and phyics backgrounds, but here's a video of the EmDrive purportedly moving itself on a test stand from back in 2007:

[video=youtube;57q3_aRiUXs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=57q3_aRiUXs#t=0s[/video]

The EmDrive is contained inside that box-like thing, and that's part of what makes this thing so crazy: since it's reactionless and doesn't have to breathe in air or exhaust anything, you can completely seal it up and it'll still work quite happily, thrusting away inside whatever you've stuffed it into. Put one in your sock drawer, and it'll start trying to lift your dresser. Swallow one, and it'll start trying to lift you. Heck, seal it up in a block of concrete, and as long as you feed it enough electric power, you'll have a block of concrete that you can make levitate.

We want to reiterate that there are apparently a lot of very good reasons why a drive like this absolutely shouldn't work, and the general consensus of the scientific community is that Shawyer's results are caused by something else and that the drive doesn't function like he thinks it does (or at all). Boeing's Phantom Works took a look at one of Shawyer's prototypes and didn't pursue it, and when that sort of thing happens, it's usually a pretty good sign that the thing doesn't function. If it functioned even a little tiny bit, you'd have to think that a company like Boeing would be all over it, right?

Still, researchers in China have developed Shawyer's design over the last several years. Yang Juan, Professor of Propulsion Theory and Engineering of Aeronautics and Astronautics at the Northwestern Polytechnic University in Xi'an, just published a paper entitled "Net thrust measurement of propellantless microwave thruster." In the paper, Yang describes an iteration of the EmDrive that's able to generate 72 grams of thrust with 2,500 watts of electricity. It doesn't sound like a huge amount, but if you compare it to the hands-down most efficient spacecraft engine we've got right now (where efficiency is at an absolute premium), an ion thruster, the Chinese EmDrive gets you four times as much thrust from half as much power without sucking down any fuel at all. Yeah, you need electricity, but electricity is cheap in space and cheaper on the ground. Anyway, you can read the paper here, and if you can make conclusive heads or tails of it, please do us all a favor and explain it in the comments.

As skeptical as we are, let's just pretend for a second that the EmDrive is proven to work. What's the future like? Well, Shawyer says that with a superconducting cavity, the EmDrive could eventually be boosted to produce three tons of lift from just one kilowatt of input power. You could put them on anything you wanted to counteract gravity, while using conventional engines to provide high-impulse thrust. This would mean flying cars, it would mean highly efficient aircraft, it would mean cheap cargo to space. Gravity would cease to be a factor, requiring only renewable energy to counteract. It would be a fundamental and mind-blowing paradigm shift in all aspects of transportation.

We want to reiterate, again, that we have to side with physics on this one. The EmDrive is an extraordinary claim, and is going require extraordinary evidence and testing and demonstrations and we're absolutely not there yet. We're nowhere close. We've got some claims, some pictures of hardware, some YouTube video, and a paper published in China — and that's it. We need to see these things mailed to NASA and JPL and some major universities with no strings attached, and we need to see them perform there, and we need to see them getting built from scratch and working as advertised, and none of that is going to happen soon. The best we can reasonably hope for is a demonstration of the Chinese prototype at an aerospace conference sometime this year.

Now, having said all that, it's definitely hard to not get just a little bit excited about the potential here. I mean, even in science fiction reactionless drives are totally science fiction, and that's what we live for around here: science fiction becoming reality.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Wow. I read about the EM drive some years ago and wondered if the drive could really work. If this is proven to be true, what could it mean for future space technology and exploration?
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
Why every single important prototype like J20, J15, J21 all used russian engines? No confidence on domestic ones?
And what happened to WS13? it died? It's been couple years since we last heard of it doing taxi run.
If WS10A production issue solved like they claimed then same methodologies and manufacturing technique, and material would be applied to WS13, then they should be solved also. Make me wonder.

I think there's serious holes in their program, too much inconsistency and back-n-forth issues.
 
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SteelBird

Colonel
Before these posts are moved to a proper thread, I'd add this for everyone's reading.

EmDrive: China's radical new space drive

Scientists in China have built and tested a radical new space drive. Although the thrust it produces may not be enough to lift your mobile phone, it looks like it could radically change the satellite industry. Satellites are just the start: with superconducting components, this technology could generate the thrust to drive everything from deep space probes to flying cars. And it all started with a British engineer whose invention was ignored and ridiculed in his home country.

The latest research comes from a team headed by Yang Juan, Professor of Propulsion Theory and Engineering of Aeronautics and Astronautics at the Northwestern Polytechnic University in Xi'an. Titled "Net thrust measurement of propellantless microwave thruster," it was published last year in the academic journal Acta Physica Sinica, now translated into English.

The technology is controversial because of that key word "propellantless". Space drives rely on Newton's laws of motion: all are based on the principle of firing propellant out the back at high speed, pushing the spacecraft forward. Even with endless power from solar cells, thrust is still limited by the supply of propellant, even with high-velocity ion drives. Numerous attempts have been made to overcome this, from the infamous Dean Drive of the 1950's to Nasa's experiments with antigravity from spinning superconductors in the 1990's. All have failed, and the efforts of pseudoscientific cranks and scammers have left the field thoroughly discredited.

British engineer Roger Shaywer stepped into this dangerous field in 2001, after twenty years with European satellite firm EADS Astrium. He set up his own company, Satellite Propulsion Research (SPR) Ltd, with the aid of a modest grant from the UK's Department of Trade and Industry.

Shawyer aimed to develop an EmDrive: a closed, conical container which, when filled with resonating microwaves, experiences a net thrust towards the wide end. It seems to violate of the law of conservation of momentum, implied by Newton, which says that no closed system can have a net thrust. However, Shawyer says net thrust occurs because the microwaves have a group velocity which is greater in one direction than the other and Einstein's relativity comes into play. Group velocity, the speed of a collection of electromagnetic waves, is a tricky business -- a pulse of light can even have a group velocity which is greater than the speed of light -- but can it really cause net thrust?

Shawyer built a demonstration thruster to test the theory in 2003. The thrust was tiny -- 16 mN, equal to the weight of a couple of peanuts -- but enough to validate the concept. However, sceptics were quick to attack. None of them actually inspected the apparatus, but Shawyer was assailed from all sides online and in the science press. Criticism was unsophisticated: Newton said it was impossible, therefore he must be a fraud. Even the most advanced theoretical critique, produced by John Costella, a PhD in relativistic electrodynamics, amounted to arguing about the direction of an arrow on one of Shawyer's diagrams.

Shawyer continued to produce and test more advanced demonstrators, working out elaborate ways of ensuring that the test results are valid and not the result of air currents, friction, ionization, interference or electromagnetic effects.

Such effects can easily ruin experiments where small forces are involved. The Nasa investigation into supposed antigravity eventually found that the apparatus was actually causing electronic interference within the measuring system and producing false readings rather than negating the Earth's pull.

Boeing's Phantom Works, which works on various classified projects and has been involved in space research, went as far as acquiring and testing the EmDrive, but say they are no longer working with Shawyer.

In 2007 the Russian Research Institute of Space Systems launched an experimental micro-satellite called Yubileiny (Jubilee) with a "non-traditional" engine which, according to Director Valery Mesnshikov, functions without ejecting reaction mass. However, it was later stated that "further developments" were needed and nothing further appears to be been published on Russian reactionless drives.

Meanwhile, the EmDrive was picked up by Yang at Xi'an, who has a background in space propulsion systems.

The Chinese team took a cautious approach. They started with a new analysis in terms of quantum theory in 2008 which indicated that the theoretical basis was sound and net thrust is possible. The next paper in 2010 quantified the amount of thrust that could be produced, and stated that the team was getting positive experimental results. The latest paper describes their latest thruster and gives the test results in details, showing that with a couple of kilowatts of power they can produce 720 mN (about 72 grams) of thrust.

It may not sound very much, less than three ounces, but in space a little thrust goes a long way. Boeing's advanced XIPS thruster, which fires out Xenon ions at high speed, generates less than a quarter as much thrust from twice as much power. It's used to maintain satellites in position, or move them to a slightly different orbit. Crucially, Xips weights about twenty kilos, more than an equivalent EmDrive, and the propellant for prolonged operation can weigh much more.

Propellant can account for as much as half the launch weight of a geostationary satellite. This means that, in principle, fitting one with an EmDrive rather than a conventional drive, could halve launch costs. Shawyer notes that EmDrives no more powerful than the Chinese one could keep the International Space Station in position without the need for costly refueling.

Meanwhile, Shawyer is moving on to bigger plans. The amount of thrust produced by an EmDrive is determined by the Q value of the cavity, which measures how well it resonates. A tuning fork has a high Q value in air; put it in treacle and it is damped and does not resonate so well. By using superconducting apparatus, Shawyer says that the Q value, and hence thrust, can be boosted by a factor of several thousand -- producing perhaps a tonne of thrust per kilowatt of power. Suddenly it's not about giving a satellite a slight nudge, it's about launching spacecraft.

Shawyer estimates that the prototype superconducting thruster could be ready in 2016. Even the most hardened sceptic would find it hard to ignore a thruster capable of levitating itself in the air. However, the EmDrive cannot violate the law of conservation of energy. It can exert force, but accelerating a vehicle over a distance still requires a huge amount of power, and ultimately it still needs a big power supply. Personal EmDrive jetpacks are unlikely, but Shawyer has plans for a deep space propulsion unit, an EmDrive-assisted spaceplane capable of taking off from an a runway and travelling to Australia in three hours -- and a personal air vehicle the size of a car.

However, aerospace companies are not in a hurry to do business with Shawyer, and he will not be able to build the superconducting thruster without funding.

Yang's experimental work is continuing; she says she is not able to discuss her work until more results are published this year. There is also the tantalising prospect of a demonstration at an aerospace conference. This might make the EmDrive hard to ignore and force a showdown with skeptics. So far the reaction in the west to Yang's work has been muted -- perhaps polite disbelief would be the best description. 2013 may change all that.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Why every single important prototype like J20, J15, J21 all used russian engines? No confidence on domestic ones?
And what happened to WS13? it died? It's been couple years since we last heard of it doing taxi run.
If WS10A production issue solved like they claimed then same methodologies and manufacturing technique, and material would be applied to WS13, then they should be solved also. Make me wonder.

I think there's serious holes in their program, too much inconsistency and back-n-forth issues.

J-20 is running on WS-10X. Check out the exhaust petal. Its different from AL-31F. Someone say its just AL-31F fit with silver petal. Then by this logic , J-31 suppose RD-93 engine shall treated with silver petal with RCS reduced edge... But is it?

And finally, most of the J-11B and J-15 are running with WS-10A. J-11BS, J-16 and J-15S are know to run with WS-10A engine. Does this show lack of confident on this engine with 5 variant running on this engine?
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
NO, and simply NO again ! Just compare the number of pedals, the inner structure of the flame-holders and so on ... they are all identical to an AL-31 and completely different to any member of the TH !

Give up that idea that the J-20 uses a WS-10-derivate.

Deino
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
J-20 is running on WS-10X. Check out the exhaust petal. Its different from AL-31F. Someone say its just AL-31F fit with silver petal. Then by this logic , J-31 suppose RD-93 engine shall treated with silver petal with RCS reduced edge... But is it?

And finally, most of the J-11B and J-15 are running with WS-10A. J-11BS, J-16 and J-15S are know to run with WS-10A engine. Does this show lack of confident on this engine with 5 variant running on this engine?

I saw the latest close in pitcures of petals of the J20. Actually there are 2 layers. Inner layer petal is blackish like the AL-31F and then another outer layer of silver, whiteish petal. Basically, silver petals covering the AL-31F.

Well, the prototype J15 landed on carrier was using AL-31F.
 

Lion

Senior Member
I saw the latest close in pitcures of petals of the J20. Actually there are 2 layers. Inner layer petal is blackish like the AL-31F and then another outer layer of silver, whiteish petal. Basically, silver petals covering the AL-31F.

Well, the prototype J15 landed on carrier was using AL-31F.

But you are simply ignoring the production batch of J-15 will run WS-10A.

Or you are denying J-16 and J-15S pt are not running WS-10A?
 
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