Chinese Engine Development

kroko said:

The same thing could be said about everything in PLA. The fact that we still see J-20 with russian engines after 2 years of flight indicates something.

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Maybe they didn't want to get ws-10s out of supply issues. Maybe they simply decided to go with an engine they've been using longer for the sake of reliable test results. What do you think it's supposed to imply?

I remember when the talk was that they wouldn't start testing a design until they had a ready engine before it started circulating that they would go ahead with flight tests and re-engine the plane once the engine is ready. The former rumour had a much later start of testing date than what we got. I don't know if you're seeing anything unusual but I'm not.

Quickie said:

The priority is testing the flight characteristics of the J-20 and this is little affected by the type of engine used. I won't be surprised if the WS-15 is tested on the J-11s initially, if it fits in, in order not to interfere with the ongoing flight testing schedule of the J-20.

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Well, I wouldn't go that far and say there is absolutely no effects to the flight characteristics. However, I think flight characteristics of the final design can be simulate with the aircraft in its current state. The lower thrust from the current engines can be compensated by flying with a lighter load. If there are significant difference in flight characteristics, they wouldn't be able to produce prototypes this early.

kroko said:

The fact that PLA doesnt disclose data (they are very secretive, everyone in this forum know it) doesnt explain the lack of any photos/images/data/whatsoever about this project. when was the last time we heard about it in this forum? 2 years?

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Yes it does.

Data the PLA controls and will not be publicly disclosed until well after the engine has entered service. Just look at the WS10A as an example of that.

Again, look at the WS10A, there still are no public pictures of it doing tests on the Il78 test bed, and the first pictures of real engines only appeared when they were installed on J11s.

If the PLA are not actively leaking stuff, the only way the public will know about new stuff is if there are pictures on it on actual planes/ships/whatever, and that is way down the line in terms of the development cycle.

Trying to read any more of it would just be an exercise in pure guesswork.

Engineer said:

Well, I wouldn't go that far and say there is absolutely no effects to the flight characteristics. However, I think flight characteristics of the final design can be simulate with the aircraft in its current state. The lower thrust from the current engines can be compensated by flying with a lighter load. If there are significant difference in flight characteristics, they wouldn't be able to produce prototypes this early.

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That's basically what I meant. The testing of the flight characteristic of the J-20 shouldn't be limited by the engine used as long as the difference in thrust and weight is not too far off. The actual intended max thrust and weight can be simulated in a supercomputer with the availability of technical data collected from the flight testing. Even the weight of the intended engine can be simulated by adding dead weight, assuming the final engine is actually heavier.

kroko said:

The same thing could be said about everything in PLA. The fact that we still see J-20 with russian engines after 2 years of flight indicates something.

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I doubt they would change an engine on a prototype through its testing phase, that is probably very unlikely to happen

and if it does use a Russian engine no surprise there, whoever is making the WS10 series is probably pretty busy building these engines, as in recent years they have delivered more than 250 units of WS10, at that production rate the Quality control issues must be solved otherwise we would be hearing of many J11B crashes

and that’s J11B alone, then we have J10B, J15, J16 and probably more aircraft going for WS10 added to the replacement’s and overhauls the WS10 is a pretty heavily used engine, so you can see why they still import Russian engines because quite simply put China can’t keep up with the large numbers required

now that we know WS10 is in production with no issues, getting the rest of the turbofan engines will be an easier task, the hard work is done, now other engines like WS13 can also go into production, the jet engine technology is extremely advanced

one of my friends from the lab that I did my PhD in now works for JM the catalysis company, and the next generation Rolls Royce turbofan engines will be platinum derivative coated, the procedure to spray the fan blades is so advanced that even Rolls Royce did not have the instruments to do this procedure, once sprayed the imperfections are studied using electron microscopy at the nanometre level, it builds 3D image of how well the blade is coated, outside the MBR limits and the blade is rejected, that is turbofan technology for you

It appears that china will launch soon a major project related to aircraft engine technology, perhabs with a 16 billion dolar cost.

kroko said:

It appears that china will launch soon a major project related to aircraft engine technology, perhabs with a 16 billion dolar cost.

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I wonder if this means that current projects (WS-15, WS-13, etc) are in trouble and that china has initiated a crash program to try to jumpstart research.

kroko said:

I wonder if this means that current projects (WS-15, WS-13, etc) are in trouble and that china has initiated a crash program to try to jumpstart research.

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it means that China did not put enough money in here before and it's doing that now. And also that civilian aeroengine costs a lot of capital.

tphuang said:

it means that China did not put enough money in here before and it's doing that now. And also that civilian aeroengine costs a lot of capital.

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about dang time! I guess the silver lining is they recognize this 'weakness' and are attempting to correct it for once and for all.

I saw a documentary of the Rolls Royce Trent engine manufacturing. It was some workshop. It was a huge high tech clean room facility like the making handphones or medicines and there were lots of automation in the making of blades. Where manual work was involved, there would be high tech testing. To build that kind of facility, you need huge capital outlay.