Chinese Economics Thread

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
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This is the story behind outsourcing. Trade between Japan and China is in disarray and look how it hasn't affected China much. As Japan's economy is being hit news is China's economy is rebounding. Do you think the US isn't that much different from Japan? How many Chinese brand names can Americans name? Is it a wonder that China's richest according to Forbes have nothing to very little to do with outsourcing?

Yup on different plane not too long ago after the HSR accident the pundit foretell the demise of HSR in China instead China continue unabated opening new line one after another. Just watch CCTV they plan to open the northwest line linking Dalian, Shenyang and Harbin. Another huge line Beijing Zhuhai will be open ,
Shanghai- Hangzhou is another one. Reading the Big dog report in Sky scraper forum on most week end, most of the seat are sold out. Now where are those critic that bitch about foolish decision to built the HSR where no one will use it because no one can afford it Nice theory but as always wrong

11.25 Beijing-Zhengzhou HSR on trial run

Length: 681km
Design speed: 350km/h

The 2200km Beijing-Guangzhou HSR will open in December.

Hangzhou-Nanjing HSR to trial run in December, open in February 2013

The new HSR rail will not need a detour passing Shanghai. The whole trip will only take 1 hour and 120 Yuan ($19).

Project info (宁杭城际铁路):

Length: 248.963 km (63% bridges, 11% tunnels)
Design speed: 350km/h
Stations: 11
Construction: 4 years (12/27/2008 ~ 12/26/2012)
Cost: 23.75 bln yuan

My HSR experience last week (Shanghai Hongqiao - Cangzhou 1100km)
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Hongqiao Station

On the train, weekend trip is always 100% occupancy

Cangzhou HSR station. It's getting more crowded every time I visit, luckily two halls were built at the same time (only one opened so far)


platform, I almost missed getting off the train on return trip since I thought Shanghai is the destination (its hangzhou actually)
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
If US don't bail out their automakers, they were simply going to be bought by Chinese automakers .

Post some proof of this statement please.

Americans have an American car culture, so they tend to buy american cars even when they were overpriced and not as fuel-efficient.

There's a car culture in the US.. that's for sure. However American brands make up only about 50% of the car brands on the road in the USA.

You may ask: oh what's wrong with that? because deep inside, you still believe US car companies survives by being efficient and making competitive priced cars, that was never the case. The case was culture is the ultimate determinate of economy, Americans have an American car culture, so they tend to buy American cars even when they were overpriced and not as fuel-efficient.

Friend, you don't know what you are posting about.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
precedent? china has already many protectionist measures against foreign firms

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it seems that ordos is becoming a ghost-city. And perhabs other cities too.

Kroko you need to differentiate between spin and real news. Not too long ago the pundit were gleefully predicting the coming implosion of Chinese economy. All the china basher come out from the woodwork with their own prediction " The sky will fall" Hey even our friend Gordon Chang try to redeem his shattered reputation with catchy title like the wheel is coming off the Chinese economy.
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. Well Fat Chance

Now the talking head is gushing with optimism and turn 180 degree
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China's Xi Enjoys Honeymoon With Investors
By Dexter Roberts on November 30, 2012


Confidence is back, at least when it comes to China. A survey of Bloomberg terminal subscribers around the world shows renewed optimism about China’s economy, following the shift to a new leadership, headed by 59-year-old party secretary Xi Jinping. The good news comes after recent encouraging signs in the Chinese economy, including strong growth in industrial profits, retail sales, and trade.

Seventy-two percent of investors, traders, and analysts polled say China’s economy will either improve or remain the same, up from September’s 38 percent. Fifty-three percent expect Xi’s policies to be good for business, up from 42 percent who said that about Xi’s predecessor, Hu Jintao. Twenty-one percent by contrast say China’s economy is deteriorating, significantly down from the 61 percent who believed that in September. The survey of 862 Bloomberg subscribers was carried out Nov. 27, just 12 days after Xi was anointed as China’s new top leader.


Hopes are high that princeling Xi, the son of a former vice premier who pushed economic liberalization some three decades ago, will jump-start stalled reforms, including further loosening of controls over the currency, stricter monitoring of official graft to help address a growing income gap, and encouragement of a more market-based lending system that supports private enterprises.

“Xi’s personable style and track record in private-sector-friendly provinces [including Fujian, Zhejiang, and Shanghai] have led to many hopes that he will bring fresh momentum to economic and political reform,” said Beijing-based consultancy GK Dragonomics in a Nov. 19 note. “Public discussion of economic and financial reform has picked up after the close of the 18th Party Congress” on Nov. 14, which saw a once-in-a-decade shift in leadership, GK Dragonomics said in a later note.

Xi’s No. 2, 57-year-old Li Keqiang, said China must speed up economic reform, including by faster urbanization, in an article in the Party’s official People’s Daily newspaper on Nov. 21. Li, an English speaker with a law degree and doctorate in economics from top academy Peking University, is expected to be named premier, with responsibility for running the economy, at China’s National People’s Congress in March of next year. At that time Xi will almost certainly become president.

The survey showed investors see China as the country providing the second-best business opportunity worldwide over the next year, behind the U.S. but ahead of other countries such as Brazil, Russia, and India. The European Union and Japan were viewed as providing the worst opportunities. Fifty-three percent of those polled say they are optimistic about the investment climate under Xi, vs. 60 percent who say that about Germany’s Angela Merkel and 52 percent for Barack Obama. (The lowest rating goes to Prime Minister Yoshiko Noda of Japan, with only 21 percent expressing confidence about his policies.)

To be sure, the era of double-digit growth in China seems to be ending just as significant new challenges appear. China is facing a rapidly aging population, in part because of its one-child policy of the past 30 years. Its labor force will peak next year at 1 billion, then it will shrink, adding huge new pressures to China’s already stressed pension system. Wage inflation, running at 20 percent a year, is proving particularly painful for lower-cost exporting industries, including textiles and toys. Corporate debt has soared after several years of investment-driven growth and looks set to reach 122 percent of GDP this year, estimates GK Dragonomics.

And the early gains from throwing open what was then a command and control economy, starting more than three decades ago, are starting to fade. The economic benefit resulting from “China’s insertion into the global economy [including following its entry into the World Trade Organization in 2001] is not over but it is slowing down at the moment,” says Louis Kuijs, chief China economist at Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) in Hong Kong. “The enormous efficiency gains and economies of scale that many factories and industries have seen are also coming down. So we will see growth moderating into the future.”

“The economic and political challenges that the new leaders face are different and also harder to manage than those which confronted their predecessors 10 years ago,” added Moody’s Investors Service (MCO) in a Nov. 21 note. “For the first time since China embarked on fundamental reforms to open its economy in the late 1970s, its leadership will likely face an era of single-digit growth against the backdrop of weak external demand, a maturing domestic economy, and changing demographics.”
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
precedent? china has already many protectionist measures against foreign firms

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it seems that ordos is becoming a ghost-city. And perhabs other cities too.

There are two bubbles going on in China and US, in China the bubble is construction apartment building, shopping malls being constructed without any direct demand, this is being done to boost the economy.

In US the bubble is the financial industry moving money around for the sake of making money, which created this giant bubble only benefiting themselves at the expense of the economy. And from the too big to fail bailout you can see instead of letting the bubble burst they are still keep the bubble

One day both bubble will burst in China and US, when it burst in China, thousands of construction firms will go down and the bank will suffer, BUT what is left over is millions of new building waiting to be filled up by over 400 million farmer which planned to moving to the cities. This will be similar to US" Panic of 1893, which bank and construction firm over invested in railroads. However in this case, China really do have the demand to fill those apartments up.

When the bubble in US burst, it will leave no physical infrastructure, all you have left is a bunch of ultra rich billionaires and millionaires and hundreds of million of people who's money is going to be nearly worthless by the hyper-inflation as a result of the reckless gambling of the financial elites, who will inevitable get bail out by the government again and again with printed/borrowed/QE money which will only water down the value of the dollars, and of course, the ever increasing debt to GDP ratio.

Which bubble would you choose? China or US? For me, I rather have China's bubble than US bubble day day of the year.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
There are two bubbles going on in China and US, in China the bubble is construction apartment building, shopping malls being constructed without any direct demand, this is being done to boost the economy.

In US the bubble is the financial industry moving money around for the sake of making money, which created this giant bubble only benefiting themselves at the expense of the economy. And from the too big to fail bailout you can see instead of letting the bubble burst they are still keep the bubble

One day both bubble will burst in China and US, when it burst in China, thousands of construction firms will go down and the bank will suffer, BUT what is left over is millions of new building waiting to be filled up by over 400 million farmer which planned to moving to the cities. This will be similar to US" Panic of 1893, which bank and construction firm over invested in railroads. However in this case, China really do have the demand to fill those apartments up.

When the bubble in US burst, it will leave no physical infrastructure, all you have left is a bunch of ultra rich billionaires and millionaires and hundreds of million of people who's money is going to be nearly worthless by the hyper-inflation as a result of the reckless gambling of the financial elites, who will inevitable get bail out by the government again and again with printed/borrowed/QE money which will only water down the value of the dollars, and of course, the ever increasing debt to GDP ratio.

Which bubble would you choose? China or US? For me, I rather have China's bubble than US bubble day day of the year.

Exactly the urbanization in China will become the driver of Chinese economy for years to come. And as you said China do have need for those million of square feet floor that they build right now bubble or not. Sooner or later it will be occupied. World bank president just praise China for trying to bridge the gap between rich and poor and ready to cooperate with China on huge urbanization that will be undertaken in coming decades

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World Bank President Jim Yong Kim has said recent economic developments in China are gratifying. During a visit to the Asian country, he's agreed with Beijing to cooperate in studying the effects of urbanization.

The President of the World Bank, Jim Yong Kim, said on Friday recent positive economic signals from China were more than "a flash in the pan." On his first trip to the Asian nation at the helm of the institution, he praised Beijing's efforts to fuel domestic growth.

Jim Yong Kim said current growth forecasts were very positive, following a rather negative third quarter. The Chinese government expects the national economy to expand by 7.5 percent this year.

The World Bank President said the new leadership in the world's second-largest economy was showing resolve to tackle the disparities between rich and poor parts of the population.


Beijing and the World Bank agreed to launch a joint study on the effects of large-scale urbanization in China, one of the big and exploding human migrations of modern times.


Environmental degradation has emerged as a serious downside of China's rapid development. In a rare acknowledgement, Beijing admitted that China has entered a “sensitive period” of growing discontent over pollution. (28.11.2012)

Both sides recognized that urbanization helped to fuel growth and raise people's living standards, but also meant enormous challenges to the environment, food security and the delivery of health care services.

Chinese cities have expanded rapidly in number and scale over the past three decades, with more than half of the country's 1.35 billion people now being urban dwellers.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Remember how it was reported in the media by economist Nouriel Roubini that he said he rode an empty maglev train from Shanghai to Hangzhou being a sign China's economy was in a bubble. Problem is there is no maglev train that goes from Shanghai to Hangzhou. Just goes to show how major economic experts will lie to get attention and the media will report on things they don't bother to check the facts.
 

ahadicow

Junior Member
Post some proof of this statement please.

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in 2010, Ford sold Volvo Cars to China's Zhejiang Geely Holding Group.


Friend, you don't know what you are posting about.

you took my post out of context. I wasn't criticizing american cars, I was criticizing the view that in order for an enterprize to justify its existance, it has to be profitable all the time. American cars had made big strides towards improving their fuel efficiency. That was the result of heavy investment that went in R&D and renewing/replacing their plants. Now amercian auto industry can survive if not flourish thanks to the action of US government.

But to free-market fanatics, leaving amercian auto giants like GM to its own fate would somehow make this happen because market is a magician, it is not investment and human engnieers that could make better cars, it's the magical "profit motive" . I merely pointed out how far detached that kind of view is from reality. All major captalist governments invest/subsidize/protect their key industries. A post-industrlized economy is highly coopertive and interwoven. You have to invest intensively and consistently for a long time to build a industry like automobile manufacture. To suggest, just because an industry is bad at generating profit at one point in time, it is "dead weight" that should be rid off is the narrow, unrealistic view of "free-market" school of economists.
 
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Shanghai- Hangzhou is another one. Reading the Big dog report in Sky scraper forum on most week end, most of the seat are sold out. Now where are those critic that bitch about foolish decision to built the HSR where no one will use it because no one can afford it Nice theory but as always wrong

Yes I remember those critics when China began opening the HS Trains just after the olympics. More like Malicious wishful thinking out of their own insecurity,

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Hong Kong's MTR buys first China-made locomotives
Updated: 2012-11-28 09:58
By Hao Nan (China Daily)

Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway Corp has signed a 160-million-yuan order with China CNR Co for 23 locomotives with proprietary technologies developed by its subsidiary in Dalian.


Following fierce competition, the first independently developed diesel locomotives made on the Chinese mainland have been selected by Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway Corp for use in its world-class transit system.

China CNR Co announced last week that it has secured an order worth more than 160 million yuan ($25.7 million) from the MTR for 23 diesel locomotives made with its proprietary technologies.

The designer and builder of the locomotives is a wholly owned CNR subsidiary headquartered in Dalian, Liaoning province.

According to an announcement from the State-owned railway equipment manufacturer, its CKD0A locomotives ordered by the MTR meet the strictest global emission standards and reduce operational noise to less than 70 decibels, lower than the 78-decibel standard on the Chinese mainland.

The MTR is considered one of the most successful railway operators in the world with a comprehensive and highly sophisticated network. It is also famous for caution in selecting suppliers, said the CNR statement.

The announcement also noted that the MTR procurement announcement attracted many well-known locomotive manufacturers, and bidding for the contract was fierce.

A CNR spokesman said the order shows its CKD0A locomotive has won the recognition it deserves and is also useful as a stepping stone to competing in top international railway markets.
 
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J-XX

Banned Idiot
What happened to guys like Jim Chanos, Michael Pettis, Patrick Chovanec that predicted China will crash?

Chanos was shorting Chinese banks, property developers and global mining companies.
Well Chinese bank shares have recovered most of the losses over the past year.

Yea I remember well Nourial Roubini saying Chinese High-speed rail was a bubble as seats were empty when he rode the trains.
Wonder where this guy is.

And let's not forget our favourite china doomsayer Gordy Chang. He predicted doom in 2006, then 2011, now it's 2016. Guess Gordy has his own 5 year plan. Lol
 
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