Chinese Economics Thread

J-XX

Banned Idiot
Lol Americans think the ENTIRE Chinese economy depends on them buying made in China goods.
The facts are that America buys 17% of total Chinese exports and Europe buys 22% of total Chinese exports.
Even if America stops buying Chinese products, China would still have 83% of exports going to Non-American destinations.

Some people believe too much of the media hype.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Lol Americans think the ENTIRE Chinese economy depends on them buying made in China goods.
The facts are that America buys 17% of total Chinese exports and Europe buys 22% of total Chinese exports.
Even if America stops buying Chinese products, China would still have 83% of exports going to Non-American destinations.

Some people believe too much of the media hype.

I know right? The biggest falsely is that Chinese needs America more than US needs them, because without the American consuming the goods being produced in China, how would the Chinese have jobs? It is like a caste system, where on the top of the food Chain are the American who's only job is the consume, down below is the Asians who produces for the Americans, and below that is the Africans who's only job is to give the Chinese resources to produce, so they can feed the Americans lol.

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jackliu

Banned Idiot
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One of China’s richest men squares off against President Obama in a Washington federal court today, challenging the US leader’s refusal, on national security grounds, to let him build a wind farm in the US.

“We are suing the president because we do not accept his finding that we are a national security threat. It is not true,” says Wu Jialiang, CEO of Ralls Corp., whose deal to buy land for a wind farm in Oregon near a US Navy weapons training facility ran into a presidential veto in September.

US and Chinese lawyers say it is unlikely Ralls will win its case, but that the high profile challenge is a landmark in Chinese companies’ increasingly bold strategy of investing abroad. It could also serve as a test of Chinese allegations that US investment rules are biased against Chinese companies.

Ralls Corp. is affiliated to Sany Group, one of China’s biggest private companies, whose president, Liang Wengen, ranks sixth on Forbes 2012 China Rich List. Ralls co-owner Mr. Wu is Mr. Liang’s deputy.

Ralls bought four plots of land on which it planned to build a wind farm in March 2012. The deal was later blocked by the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS), a government agency empowered to review foreign purchases of US assets to ensure they entail no national security risk.

CFIUS said it had found “credible evidence” that Chinese ownership of land near a military facility posed a risk. Ralls challenged that finding, prompting Mr. Obama to issue the first presidential order in 22 years backing a CFIUS ruling.
He issued the executive order at the climax of his presidential campaign, when he was under fire from Mitt Romney for being soft on China. Ralls then filed a suit against the president for exceeding his authority.
Lawyers do not expect the case to go far.

“The government has a pretty good case that once the president issues an executive order, that is the end of the story,” says David Fagan, an expert on cross-border investment with Covington & Burling, a Washington law firm. “The statute is pretty clear that the president has the authority to prohibit a transaction to safeguard national security.”
‘WHEN YOU CHALLENGE THE TITAN’

But the lawsuit has symbolic and psychological value, says Hao Junbo, an independent expert on transnational legal cases. “It will be good publicity in China,” he says. “When you challenge the Titan, the US, you appear a hero.”
At the same time, Mr. Hao adds, “the case presents a confident Chinese company insisting it has not done anything wrong. This case’s meaning is psychological.”

Ralls co-owner Wu, however, says he is suing because “the CFIUS definitely had political reasons [to block the deal] because we are a Chinese company.” Other firms from other foreign countries are operating wind farms on land adjacent to the restricted military area without problems, he points out.

This is not the first time that frustrated Chinese investors have complained about politicized hostility to them in the United States.

Last month a Congressional panel branded two top Chinese telecommunications companies, Huawei and ZTE, as potential threats to US national security, seriously undermining their prospects of doing business in the US.
(Read the Monitor's report about what happened to Huawei and ZTE here)

In 2005, CNOOC’s $18.5 billion bid for Unocal foundered on Congressional opposition. In 2009, CFIUS forced a Chinese mining company to give up its bid for a goldmine in Nevada near a naval air station. Last year, Huawei backed off a plan to buy assets from US computer server firm 3Leaf in the face of CFIUS objections.

“This is not the first time that the US government turns down a Chinese investment for political reasons,” the Chinese Commerce Ministry spokesman Shen Danyang said in response to Obama’s ruling. “It is all about political interests when the politicians poke their noses into bilateral commercial and trade relations,” he added.

US officials insist that the Ralls decision signals no general hostility to Chinese investment. “The president’s decision is specific to this transaction and is not a precedent with regard to any other foreign direct investment from China or any other country,” the Treasury Department said in a statement.
CHINESE INVESTMENT IN THE US

Indeed, the figures show that Chinese investment in the US, though still a tiny fraction of overall foreign investment there, is growing fast; a record $7.8 billion in deals had been announced this year by the end of August, according to data from Dealogic.

“The US is very, very open to investment from China … and the CFIUS process was not set up to be biased against China,” says Mr. Fagan.

But the 2007 Foreign Investment and National Security Act does establish a presumption that all purchases of US firms by foreign-state-owned enterprises will require a formal CFIUS investigation, points out Karl Sauvant, who teaches at Columbia Law School in New York.

“Since 90 percent of China’s outward investment comes from state owned enterprises, and China is unique in that … Chinese enterprises get more attention” from CFIUS than companies from other countries, says Dr. Sauvant, author of a book “Is the US Ready for FDI From China?”

“CFIUS was established in reaction to a jump in Japan’s foreign direct investment, and it was strengthened in response to a rise in China’s investment” in the US, says Sauvant.

‘SOUNDS LIKE DISCRIMINATION’

And, because of where they come from, acknowledges Fagan, “there is no question that Chinese transactions present more complexities than transactions from other countries.”

“One thing the process takes into account is the country of the investor, the capability and record of that country, including surveillance and spying, that might threaten US national security,” Fagan points out. “Investors from certain countries, including China, face greater scrutiny.”

Most Chinese investment deals in America go through without a hitch, says Sauvant, but the lesson of the Ralls case and others, he says, is that “whenever something is in a sensitive sector or involves larger, more visible projects, Chinese investors would be well advised to prepare the ground very carefully in Washington.”

To Chinese ears, that sort of caveat sounds like discrimination. “The US government and people do not think the Chinese government is 100 percent like other ones,” says Mr. Hao, the lawyer. “They always have doubts; it is cultural and political discrimination.”

Ralls CEO Wu complains that the presidential order “branded Sany, which is a good corporate citizen and a good company, as criminals. What kind of signal are they sending – that Chinese companies are not welcome to invest in America?”

“This will undermine other Chinese firms’ confidence about investing in America,” Wu adds.
Wu is also looking to officials in Beijing for support. “The relationship between the government and companies is like the relationship between parents and their children,” he argues. “We left home, went far away, and got bullied. But the US has many children in China; if they bully our children, can’t China bully theirs? Are Boeing planes safe to fly, for example?”

The Ralls case is unlikely to be the last of its kind, observers predict. But as Chinese companies ramp up their foreign acquisitions, it marks the first time that a Chinese firm has launched such a high level legal challenge to what it says is an unjust US ruling.

“This could well be an indication of things to come,” suggests Sauvant, “when Chinese investors will stand up if they feel they have been badly treated. One could argue that this is a straw in the wind.”
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
I know I read that this morning. So much for FDI in America to help create jobs.

They have 0 chance of winning, but it will show US that China is not to be pushed around, and if needed be, setting up a precedent for China's own protectionist measure against US firms in China.

In the end, everyone loses.
 

Player 0

Junior Member
S&P Affirms China Ratings on ‘Exceptional’ Outlook for Growth
By Bloomberg News - Nov 30, 2012 3:00 AM ET
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Standard & Poor’s affirmed China’s sovereign ratings and said the outlook remains stable, citing the nation’s “exceptional” growth prospects, holdings of overseas assets and modest government indebtedness.
China’s long-term credit rating is AA- and its short-term rating is A-1+, the company said in a statement yesterday. S&P raised the nation’s long-term rating to the fourth-highest level on Dec. 16, 2010. Yesterday’s release is an annual report on the Chinese sovereign grade.

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S&P is forecasting China will “maintain strong growth” as the nation funds investment spending, even after expansion that’s set to slow in 2012 to the weakest pace in 13 years. The country is heading into a decade under new leadership, with Xi Jinping, appointed chief of the ruling Communist Party this month, set to become president next year and Li Keqiang, the party’s No. 2, in line to replace Wen Jiabao as premier.

“We expect no major change in policy directions in China in the wake of the recent top leadership changes,” S&P said in a statement. “Efforts toward deepening structural and fiscal reforms are likely to continue.”
China’s economy may expand 7.7 percent this year, according to the median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey this month. That would be the lowest growth since 1999.

Yields on China’s 10-year government bonds have risen this year by 11 basis points to 3.55 percent, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. A basis point is equal to 0.01 percentage point. That compares with a decline in the U.S. 10-year note yield to about 1.64 percent from 1.88 percent.

Ratings History

Bond-market history indicates that the utility of sovereign ratings may be limited. Almost half the time, yields on government bonds fall when a rating action by S&P and Moody’s Investors Service suggests they should climb, according to data compiled by Bloomberg on 314 upgrades, downgrades and outlook changes going back as far as the 1970s.
After S&P stripped France and the U.S. of AAA grades, interest rates paid by the countries to finance their deficits dropped rather than rose.

S&P said yesterday it may raise China’s credit rating if structural reforms lead to a “more vibrant” domestic debt capital market, more reliance on market-based macroeconomic management tools and a more flexible exchange rate. The rating may be cut if reform efforts weaken, the nation’s economic performance becomes “markedly lower” and conditions in the banking industry worsen more than expected.

Lack of transparency in China “lessens support for the government’s credit standing,” according to yesterday’s statement, which reiterated points S&P made last year. That could also increase the risks of policy mistakes as the Chinese economy increases in complexity, S&P said.

Credit Weakness

China’s lower average income than similarly-rated sovereigns is “another key credit weakness that may exacerbate the impact of errors in economic policies,” according to the statement.

S&P estimates China’s per capita real growth in gross domestic product in 2013-2015 at 7.3 percent, down from an average 10.2 percent over the five years through 2011.

Government debt should continue to fall as a share of GDP, declining to close to 13.4 percent of economic output by 2014, it said.

At the same time, China’s fiscal position is “somewhat weaker” than indicators suggest, with local governments owing significant off-budget debt, S&P said. The lack of timely and regularly available data and questions over the legal responsibilities of local governments make external monitoring of these debts “extremely difficult,” S&P said.

To contact Bloomberg News staff for this story: Nerys Avery in Beijing at [email protected]

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Scott Lanman at [email protected]

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The next great Chinese evil... They spend money in foreign countries. Heaven forbid... cities around the world have a gun pointed to their heads forcing them to accept Chinese tourist money having to cater to them and learn some Mandarin. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world with anyone elses tourists. I guess I was imagining things when I went to the Elephant Bar in Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco and they had animatronic animals speaking French, Spanish, and Japanese greeting people at the door. Or I must've been imagining things when I was a Universal Studios and my friends and I accidentally got on a tour tram that was Spanish-speaking only. The Chinese are so evil that people have to take specific steps in order to lure Chinese tourists to their stores and on top of that the Chinese are evil enough that the store might sell-out because Chinese tourists buy things.

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Is China coming to a city near you?

Hong Kong is being transformed by the influx of mainland tourists, some say Chinese tourism magnets such as Paris, Seoul, and Taipei should prepare to deal with something similar.
By Ralph Jennings | Christian Science Monitor – Wed, Nov 28, 2012.. .


For 15 years Hong Kong has fought to maintain its local identity, language, and culture despite formal unification with mainland China. But as more and more wealthy mainland tourists flood the territory looking to shop, the Hong Kongers’s way of life is being challenged.

Hong Kong, which has a population of 7.15 million, logged 28.1 million tourists from the mainland last year, up from just shy of 7 million in 2002. Chinese tourism magnets such as Paris, Seoul, and Taipei are watching.

Chinese visitors are pumping money into Hong Kong’s vast, thirsty retail sector, which is a good thing for the economy, but not good for every local. As international companies catering to tourists have expanded, they’ve driven up rent, pushing out small shops catering to locals. Prices of daily goods and real estate are also rising, frustrating locals and highlighting significant changes underway in Hong Kong as it modernizes.

“There’s a little bit of emotional adjustment,” says Joseph Cheng, political scientist at City University of Hong Kong, noting that the territory once considered itself, in no uncertain terms, better off than the mainland. “Now it’s the other way around. They buy our real estate and go to the luxury shops. But on the whole, simply put, this integration is inevitable.”

Hong Kong became part of China in 1997 after more than 150 years of British colonial rule. British officials and the native Chinese, who trace their ancestry to southern China, built Hong Kong into an English-speaking financial hub. As part of the handover back to China, it agreed to preserve Hong Kong’s economy and ways of life until 2047.

Before 2003, Hong Kong only allowed group tours from the mainland, as a way to avoid too rapid of an influx of tourists. But when the SARS epidemic that year slowed tourism to a crawl, the government allowed individual tourists. Today, mainland Chinese make up two-thirds of visitors.

Now, Hong Kong is getting increasingly peeved at the downside to all of these tourists but finding it hard to complain as the mainlanders bring in so much money. Hong Kong is already upset about Beijing’s call for more nationalist education, per the protests there in September. There are also conflicts between Hong Kong and mainland Chinese over manners.

Among common flashpoints: Tourists crowd the metro lines, not always lining up as is custom in Hong Kong, but not China, or speaking quietly as expected in public among locals. Hong Kong dwellers say they increasingly feel pressure to learn Mandarin to survive in business. The small, sole-proprietor shops selling sundries, food, and jewelry with the sounds of the island’s native Chinese dialect Cantonese are increasingly being replaced by crowded name brand international sellers peddling in Mandarin.

“Most of the smaller enterprises need to learn more about Chinese mainlanders’ habits, buying habits, and their culture also,” says David Ting, president of the 1,500-member Hong Kong General Chamber of Small and Medium Business. “There are some retailers who know but most don’t understand.”

NOT JUST IN HONG KONG

Similar trends are emerging in Taiwan, South Korea, and Europe as China’s wealthy increasingly prefer to go elsewhere for everything from milk powder to luxury condominiums.

More than 6 million Chinese visited Taiwan in 2011, less than four years after a virtual ban on visits was lifted over security concerns. Last year Taiwan also began allowing solo tourists as a way to stimulate shopping.

About 7.7 million Chinese visited nearby South Korea last year, spending more than $2 billion, according to market research firm Euromonitor International. France saw about 1 million Chinese in 2011 and $503 million in receipts.

“Beijing’s grand strategy is to dominate East Asia without war but with economic and cultural tools,” says Lin Chong-pin, strategic studies professor at Tamkang University in Taiwan. In France, he adds, Chinese tourists “come and clean up the shops.”

Mainland shoppers in Hong Kong mete out an average $1,548 per trip, with 59 percent of that going toward shopping, consumer research firm The Nielsen Co. estimates. And that could easily rise if China meets its recently announced goal of doubling annual incomes by 2020 from an average of $4,940.

Still, at this point no other place compares to Hong Kong on the number of arrivals, proximity to China (it shares a land border), ethnic links, and questions about its political relations with Beijing.

“We are indeed taking on the role of learning and recognizing their culture and language,” says Dickson Chan, sales director with the Hong Kong tour operator United Holidays. He suggests that other world cities “learn from visitors and provide the best of services to attract them.”

SOCIAL, ECONOMIC TRADEOFFS?

Along Canton Road, an upmarket shopping district, almost every shopper stopped by a reporter comes from mainland China. Families line up at Gucci and Hermes outlets to take advantage of Hong Kong’s product authenticity guarantees and no sales tax, two perks hard to find in the mainland.

“My feeling is that Hong Kong is a big city, with a big city experience, and at the same time prices are cheaper,” says Canton Road shopper Deng Yanfei, of Guangdong Province. “Most of us come for the luxury brands like Louis Vuitton.”

Mainland shoppers generally go just for international brands, allowing big-name jewelers and clothiers to displace sole proprietors preferred by local shoppers.

“Now normal citizens can’t buy from areas near their homes,” says Mr. Ting from the chamber of commerce. “All the landlords would like to rent to shops for the big brands.”

One independent jeweler just off Canton Road reported no business from mainland Chinese despite heavy pass-by traffic. A tailor in the same mall said only foreigners buy suits from his nonbranded shop.

“If you are talking about Taipei or Singapore, they also need to adapt to [mainland Chinese] habits and their culture,” he says. “The customer is king.”

Seriously, the world is really full of dumb idiots if now all of the sudden the countries that complain they don't make money form Chinese are turning making money from Chinese as something negative. Everything in that article is what they call the tourism industry and how to make money from it.
 

Player 0

Junior Member
China Investing More in Europe than Europe Investing in China
Last year European companies invested $8.9 billion in China, while Chinese investments in Europe totaled more than $14 billion.
Nov. 19, 2012 Agence France-Presse
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Highlighting China's growing global impact, Chinese merger and acquisition activity in Europe in the first quarter of 2012 surpassed that of European firms in China for the first time, a study has shown.

"Chinese investors feel that the lingering uncertainty in the eurozone increases their chances of securing favorable deals with debt-laden European companies that were until now inaccessible," Helene Rives, head of China Business Group for PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), said Monday.

A recent PwC report found that in the first three months of this year, 32 investment deals by Chinese companies were recorded in Europe compared with 26 by European companies in China.

"This marks the first time that deal flow volume has been greater to Europe than to China," the report said.

Europe-bound deals by mainland Chinese investors steadily increased from 11 in 2006 to 61 in 2011, the report said, adding that figures from early this year indicate another annual increase.

The report said a "relatively weak euro and declining valuations have proved fertile ground for Chinese investors to find good deals" amid the eurozone crisis.

From Europe to China, deals fell from 163 in 2006 to a low of 85 in 2009 "as European investors felt the effects of the credit crunch and the impending eurozone crisis", the report said.

European M&A recovered, however, to total 125 deals in 2011, PwC said.

Last year European companies invested 7 billion euros (US$8.9 billion) in China in M&A deals, while Chinese investments in Europe totaled more than 11 billion euros (US$14 billion), according to the report.

Copyright Agence France-Presse, 2012

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ahadicow

Junior Member
The bailouts is a bad idea and China should allow the solar panel makers to merge or go bankrupt. This is how the US got into trouble because the economy was carrying to much dead weight after two decades of bailing out everyone from the automakers to airliners to banks and insurance companies. China is risking making the same mistakes.

not really. the fundamental reason for economic crisis is stagnent demand and over-abandance of credit - the product of wealth polarization. Free-market purilists cry when government intervenes but they cry in vain, the real economy was never as free as they were taught(or BSed) in schools.

If US don't bail out their automakers, they were simply going to be bought by Chinese automakers . You may ask: oh what's wrong with that? becuase deep inside, you still believe US car companies survives by being efficient and making competitve priced cars, that was never the case. The case was culture is the ultimate determinator of economy, Americans have an american car culture, so they tend to buy american cars even when they were overpriced and not as fuel-efficient. If China can grab a hold of that culture by buying into american brands, they can effiectively control that market and put not only Americans but also Japanese car makers out of business, not only that, they will have the top engineers working for them and they can simply tell those engineers to work on chinese-branded cars and after US auto industry collapse, your "free-market" economists could come out and tell americans "don't worry, leave making cars to the Chinese, they are more efficient anyway, we only need banks to give us loans so we can buy chinese made cars."
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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In my analysis, Japan's direct and indirect exports to China are estimated to be 30% of Japan's total exports. Besides, 60 to 70% of China's total exports to Japan are operated by Japanese companies. Therefore, Japanese companies not only play a key role in expanding China's exports to Japan, but also get the lion's share of the profits.

This is the story behind outsourcing. Trade between Japan and China is in disarray and look how it hasn't affected China much. As Japan's economy is being hit news is China's economy is rebounding. Do you think the US isn't that much different from Japan? How many Chinese brand names can Americans name? Is it a wonder that China's richest according to Forbes have nothing to very little to do with outsourcing?
 
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