Chinese Economics Thread

J-XX

Banned Idiot
you know i find it hilarious western media, analysts, professors, economists, investors, etc having such joy predicting the collapse of the chinese economy and seeing the chinese economy slow down, yet their own economies are pretty much either in depression or on the verge of collapse and they try to ignore them or talk as little about it as possible and conentrate the majority of the time on china's problems.

it seems the only way these people get satisfaction is predicting the collapse of china or seeing china actually slowdown.

they didnt think china would have this much power and influence this quick, the global financial crisis accelerated the power shift from west to east and the west is scared of china's rise.

you know the scariest part for the west, as much as china has risen, china is no where near a developed country, china is still a developing country and already possess significant power and influence in various areas, if china is this powerful now as a developing country, just imagine how powerful china will be when it becomes a fully developed country in the decades ahead.
deep down this is what the west fears. that is why they hope china collapses.

the west hopes china will be another soviet union or another japan and eventually collapse or stagnate, but china has a population vastly bigger than japan or soviet union. just like america had a population much bigger than anyone else, china has a population much bigger than america. scale matters.
infact china has a population bigger than the total population of the western countries combined.

the reason there has been so much anti-china bias in western media is because of fear and also because of china's relative success compared with the west post-global financial crisis.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
If anything China is the USA's modern Political and Military Counterpart of the Soviet Union and the Economic Rival of Japan combined. It has the best of both worlds.

It is very much more open than Soviet Union was economically and socially, being able to adapt and interact with rest of the world more easily. The fear of its citizens learning about their own poverty and abject condition compared to the West, made then cloister up behind the Iron Curtain and follow the latest technology and trends in the World.

Compared to Japan like J-XX said the size of scale. If anything China is like a tiger and Japan is like cat. Both very similar on first appearance, but because of its nature cats can only grow so big compared to Tiger. China which has manpower, resources, geographic size advantage. Japan has reach its limit, it's population reached a higher GDP per capita than USA, meaning its hard to use labor price advantage, and its population declined. Being a small nation with very little land and limited resources you have can only technology to keep you a had and generate growth. However that advantage is shrunk significantly recently especially compared to its rival in East Asia, China and Korea.
 
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Maggern

Junior Member
Somehow this thread always flows from economic news to the issue of china's future dominance and the west's attempts at containing it. I feel this thread would be orders of magnitude more interesting if there was more of the factual discussions that pop up from time to time rather than the umpteenth user posting some general remark about china's rise.. and how preoccupied the west is by trying to crush /ignore it...unless related to the specific article....
 

flyzies

Junior Member
Somehow this thread always flows from economic news to the issue of china's future dominance and the west's attempts at containing it. I feel this thread would be orders of magnitude more interesting if there was more of the factual discussions that pop up from time to time rather than the umpteenth user posting some general remark about china's rise.. and how preoccupied the west is by trying to crush /ignore it...unless related to the specific article....

Well, i don't think there is any doubt US / West is trying to contain China. First example that pops into my mind is the TPP. Even though China is Asia's largest economy, she is deliberately excluded from the TPP on pure political grounds. This is the most open and blunt containment policy of China, set up by the US, to date.

PS: FYI, TPP stands for Trans Pacific Partnership
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
TTP is because they didn't want China to be leading and write the rules in any FTA. The "China experts" that advise all the US Presidents say that China can be coaxed by exclusion. They think China doesn't want to be left out. China is the center of any free trade agreement in the region. If China wants to play games like the one being played on China then it should never join. If free trade were so wonderful and beneficial without China, wouldn't they have had a free trade agreement among themselves already? The US doesn't get into free trade just for the heck of it. It's to counter something. The only reason why free trade is discussed is because of the China factor. If China doesn't join, everyone will be feeding off of the only large market, the US, which is why there's domestic political opposition in the first place. Just like with the military. China shouldn't complain about what the US and others do militarily in the region. China just has to never start the war but continue to modernize its military as it sees fit. Either the US will be paying for others' military who can't afford it or the regional players will lose in the arms race preparing for a war China will never start.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
you know i find it hilarious western media, analysts, professors, economists, investors, etc having such joy predicting the collapse of the chinese economy and seeing the chinese economy slow down, yet their own economies are pretty much either in depression or on the verge of collapse and they try to ignore them or talk as little about it as possible and conentrate the majority of the time on china's problems.

it seems the only way these people get satisfaction is predicting the collapse of china or seeing china actually slowdown.

they didnt think china would have this much power and influence this quick, the global financial crisis accelerated the power shift from west to east and the west is scared of china's rise.

you know the scariest part for the west, as much as china has risen, china is no where near a developed country, china is still a developing country and already possess significant power and influence in various areas, if china is this powerful now as a developing country, just imagine how powerful china will be when it becomes a fully developed country in the decades ahead.
deep down this is what the west fears. that is why they hope china collapses.

the west hopes china will be another soviet union or another japan and eventually collapse or stagnate, but china has a population vastly bigger than japan or soviet union. just like america had a population much bigger than anyone else, china has a population much bigger than america. scale matters.
infact china has a population bigger than the total population of the western countries combined.

the reason there has been so much anti-china bias in western media is because of fear and also because of china's relative success compared with the west post-global financial crisis.

Now where are all those prophet of doom and gloom? They are wrong and as always they can't believe that anything other than their own system can succeed. yeat they clearly underestimate China and the Chinese. althose doom and gloom prediction are nothing but sour grape and wishfull thinkine somehow China will stop growing and they maintained the supremacy in economy and military

China's economic outlook brightens
By Chris Isidore @CNNMoney June 11, 2012: 1:41 PM ET


China's economic outlook has brightened in the past week after a rate cut and better-than-expected data.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Only a week ago, worries that China's economy was at risk of a "hard landing" that could damage overall global growth were widespread.

But an interest rate cut and some better-than-expected Chinese economic readings over the weekend have helped allay many of those fears.

Those fears had worried investors around the globe, since China, already the world's No. 2 economy behind the United States, has become a key driver of global growth.

But the 3% annual rise in consumer prices in consumer prices China reported Saturday, the lowest inflation reading since August 2010, raised hopes that policymakers can provide further stimulus in the coming months without prices getting out of control. There are some hopes that lower prices for some types of food could also spur stronger consumer spending by itself.

Chinese industrial output grew at a slightly slower 9.6% annual rate, but it was nowhere near the decline in manufacturing shown in some recent surveys. And while retail sales growth also slowed slightly to 13.8%, the country's trade surplus grew unexpectedly, as the level of both exports and imports hit new records. That suggests recession conditions in much of Europe aren't jamming the brakes on Chinese factories.

While overall Chinese economic growth might still come in at the slowest pace in years, many economists now believe it will be near or at 8% for the year.

And some are expecting much stronger growth. Carl Weinberg, chief economist of High Frequency Economics, believes that retail spending is rising fast enough to bring growth close to 10% this year, given the 10.9% rise in retail sales so far this year after inflation.

The new global economy

"I think China's growth potential is underestimated and under appreciated by many people," said Weinberg. "Consumer spending in China generated 40% of GDP; only 5% comes from exports."




Other observers believe that Chinese officials are keen to keep growth going strong ahead of the change in political leadership set to take place later this year.

The rate cut and other stimulus from the People's Bank of China are "having an immediate impact, and we should see even stronger economic numbers in the months ahead," said Mark Williams, chief Asia economist for Capital Economics.
Related: What China's power struggle means for economy

Williams said he believes it's investment, both through government spending on infrastructure and businesses investing in new factories, that is driving the renewed growth. He sees the investment level remaining high through the rest of this year or early next year, at least until the new government leadership is in place.

"When given a choice, we always thought they were always going to choose to support growth this year," he said.

But other economists worry that the improving outlook in China could be fleeting, given the problems elsewhere, such as the sovereign debt crisis in Europe or weakening growth in the U.S..

"The strengthening (Chinese) export growth in the second quarter will likely be short lived," said economists at Barclays Capital in a note Monday, adding "the initial signs of stabilization in China may not be enough to support global growth."
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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US exempts India, but not China, from Iran sanctions
By Shaun Tandon | AFP – 3 hrs ago

The United States said Monday it would exempt seven emerging economies including India from tough new sanctions after they cut back on oil from Iran, but the punishment still loomed for China.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton added India, Malaysia, South Africa, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Turkey and Taiwan to the list of those exempt from the sanctions. In March, she made exemptions for European Union nations and Japan.

The decision was announced two days before Clinton meets Indian officials for annual talks. The move resolves one of the biggest points of tension in years in the growing relationship between the world's two largest democracies.

Under a law approved last year that irritated some US allies, the United States starting on June 28 will penalize foreign financial institutions over transactions with Iran's central bank, which handles sales of the country's key export.

Clinton said the seven economies exempted on Monday have all "significantly" reduced crude oil purchases from Iran. She cast the exemptions as proof of success in the US campaign to put pressure on Iran's clerical regime, which Israel and some Western officials fear is seeking a nuclear bomb.

"By reducing Iran's oil sales, we are sending a decisive message to Iran's leaders: until they take concrete actions to satisfy the concerns of the international community, they will continue to face increasing isolation and pressure," Clinton said in a statement.

However, the United States did not announce an exemption for China -- which is heavily dependent on oil from Iran and elsewhere to power its giant economy. Officials said that the United States remained in talks with Beijing.

"We have informed our Chinese colleagues fully about the scope and urgency" of the sanctions, a senior US official told reporters on condition of anonymity.

But the official said that China -- one of six nations in talks with Iran that resume next week in Moscow -- was a "very important partner" on the nuclear row.

"We may have different perceptions of sanctions at different times, but one of the things that has been very important is that China has agreed to this dual-track process of pressure as well as persuasion," the official said.

China's President Hu Jintao called Friday on Iran to be "flexible and pragmatic" on its nuclear program. Some industry experts say that China, despite its public stance, has been quietly diversifying from Iranian oil.

A number of countries were angered by the US law, arguing that only the UN Security Council has the right to slap sanctions and that the reductions in oil would jeopardize an already shaky economic recovery.

But Iran's arch-rival Saudi Arabia has opened its spigots to make up for any shortfall from Tehran. To the surprise of some forecasters, oil prices have been declining despite the tensions surrounding Iran.

India said last month that it would cut its purchases of Iranian oil by 11 percent. The decrease is below that pledged by several other countries, but marked a change from New Delhi's initial protests.

India is highly dependent on oil imports and historically has enjoyed warm relations with Iran. But India was eager to play down the dispute when Clinton visited last month to prepare for this week's annual talks.

President Barack Obama's administration hopes to exert economic pressure on Iran in part to avert an attack by Israel, whose prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has not ruled out the use of force.

Administration officials have repeatedly voiced fear that an Israeli strike would be devastating and potentially fuel an arms race in the region.

Clinton, in her statement, renewed her call on Iran to "engage seriously" to resolve international concerns.

"Iran has the ability to address these concerns by taking concrete steps during the next round of talks in Moscow. I urge its leaders to do so," Clinton said.

Iran contends that its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. US intelligence, while concerned about Iran, has not concluded that Iran is building a nuclear weapon.

Exempt means they're still doing business with Iran. In context of how China was being accused of the only one doing business with Iran, it's still pretty hypocritical regardless if these "exempted countries" have significantly reduced business ties with Iran. In regards to the story of Stuxnet and Flame I posted in the other thread... how effective were they if they're still pushing sanctions?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Now how they do it even with Europe in turmoil and rising wage and raw material, rising Yuan. Increase productivity of course. Invest in machinery an automation. To overwrite China growth is nothing but wishfull thinking. China still have a lot of tricj under their sleeve. Chovanec and Petis read this article from New York time

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Selling Abroad, China Eases Slump at Home

By KEITH BRADSHER

Published: June 10, 2012



GUANGZHOU, China — With China’s domestic economy stumbling badly this spring as construction and retail sales slow, this country is unleashing a fresh surge of exports that is preserving millions of jobs in Chinese factories but could fan trade tensions with the West.


Forbes Conrad for The New York Times

Weakness in the domestic economy has led Chinese to look for jobs at export businesses.


China’s General Administration of Customs announced on Sunday that exports had surged 15.3 percent in May from a year earlier, twice as fast as economists had expected and vaulting May past last December as the biggest month ever for Chinese exports. China’s trade surplus has expanded in each of the last three months.

As indebted European economies slip into recession and unemployment inches back up in the United States, Chinese factories are outcompeting rivals in developing countries and the West to claim larger market shares even as global demand is barely rising.

“Our sales have picked up significantly and we’re now overbooked,” said Roger Lee, chief executive of the TAL Group in Hong Kong, one of the biggest suppliers of high-end dress shirts to department stores and luxury brands in the United States.

China’s renewed success relies heavily on the American market, with Chinese exports to the United States soaring 23 percent in May from a year earlier, the data on Sunday showed. Chinese exports to the European Union rose only 3.2 percent.

But resurgent Chinese exports also have the potential to become a political issue in the American elections in November. Mitt Romney, who has clinched the Republican nomination for president, has already promised in campaign ads to stand up to China more vigorously on currency issues. President Obama has set up an interagency group to investigate trade law violations, particularly by China.

Underpinning China’s export success is a combination of long-term investments in automation and short-term depreciation of the currency.

Manufacturers across China are investing in labor-saving equipment, reorganizing shop floor management and taking other measures to control labor costs, which have been rising steeply as the country grows in prosperity.

Here in southern China, a manufacturer of home saunas has installed a $25,000 computer-controlled drill that does the work of up to eight people. A garment company in Wenxi, in eastern China, is buying machinery to manufacture buttons more cheaply. And a printer in Wuhan, in central China, is fully automating paper cutting and plans further investments in printing and binding, so that workers will only be required to package the finished product.

“We are investing in additional machinery so as to improve productivity,” said Jessica Meng, the sales director at the printer, Maxleaf Stationery. “Labor costs are too high these days.”

The move to automation, consistent across many industries, is a central reason that Chinese imports in the United States are becoming cheaper. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the United States show that average prices for goods imported from China edged down in April for the first time in almost two years, despite double-digit increases in labor costs.


Rising Chinese labor costs have not yet meant relief for China’s rivals in other developing countries, Japan and the West, partly because automation is offsetting an erosion in Chinese competitiveness.

Beijing officials have strongly endorsed stepped-up equipment investments by exporters. Labor shortages in export zones have meant that workers have not tended to protest the introduction of more machinery.

As the domestic Chinese economy slows, the government is also counteracting some of the pain by taking currency actions to help exporters. The Chinese government allowed the country’s tightly managed currency, the renminbi, to fall nearly 1 percent against the dollar last month, its largest drop since Beijing officials unpegged the currency from the dollar in July 2005. A weaker renminbi makes Chinese goods less expensive in foreign markets, and makes imports less affordable in China.

The competitive advantage for Chinese exporters is amplified by a fundamental shift in inflation. For years, producer prices in China were rising faster than producer prices in the United States. As a result, the inflation-adjusted exchange rate of the renminbi to the dollar was rising even faster — it was up 40 percent since 2005, according to a Treasury report last month.

But producer prices in China have been falling this year. They were down 1.7 percent in May from a year earlier, as the popping of China’s real estate bubble over the past year depressed demand for steel, cement and other materials. Producer prices have kept rising in the United States, so the inflation-adjusted exchange rate has moved about 2 percent in favor of China’s exporters this year.

At the same time, weakness in China’s domestic economy


It is easier to find workers this year, much easier,” said James Jian, the general manager of Hongyuan Furniture here, a 200-employee manufacturer of home saunas that use infrared lights instead of hot rocks. Demand for the saunas, which cost $1,500 to $4,000, is particularly strong from affluent households in the United States, he added.


Chinese officials have also urged the country’s state-owned banks to lend more to small and medium-size manufacturers, many of which are exporters. The country’s 70 financial institutions, all state controlled, have been lending heavily to state-owned enterprises; some are exporters, but many are engaged more in domestic activities like real estate development and infrastructure.

In antisubsidy trade cases, however, the United States Commerce Department typically regards loans from state-owned banks as carrying subsidized interest rates. Loans are widely issued at fairly low interest rates through a system that allocates credit based partly on the Five-Year Plan and other national policies, as opposed to who can pay the highest risk-adjusted interest rate.

The strong Chinese exports in May came after a much weaker month in April, when shipments to Europe actually shrank. But American demand for Chinese goods has been consistently strong.

May had an extra workday this year and April had one fewer day because of the timing of Chinese holidays. But this has a limited effect on exports because manufacturers schedule enough shifts to meet demand.

The biggest question mark is the extent to which manufacturers can continue to offset rising labor costs with investments in automation and the reorganization of often-inefficient work practices.

China’s current Five-Year Plan calls for industrial wages to rise 13 percent a year through 2015, and some cities have been raising their minimum wages even faster. Mr. Lee of the TAL Group said that his company’s labor costs were already rising at least 15 percent a year. By contrast, productivity per worker is rising only half as fast as wages, he said, as the manufacture of woven shirts is hard to automate.

The TAL Group has found some efficiencies through reorganizing its employees into smaller work teams. If Foxconn, which makes iPhones and other electronic products for Apple and many other manufacturers, fully carries out all of the pay and overtime policy changes that it announced in February, then its labor costs per worker could rise as much as 40 percent, Mr. Lee said, adding that this would put heavy pressure on other manufacturers like TAL to raise wages even faster.
 

escobar

Brigadier
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A Chinese-Japanese investment group agreed to buy Saab Automobile and convert the bankrupt Swedish manufacturer into a maker of electric cars.

The first vehicle under the plan will be based on Saab’s 9-3 car and will go on sale early in 2014, with China as the main market, purchaser National Electric Vehicle Sweden AB and the bankruptcy administrators for Trollhaettan-based Saab said today in a joint statement. The parties agreed not to disclose the price of Saab’s sale.

The purchasing group consists of Hong Kong-based renewable- energy power-plant builder National Modern Energy Holdings Ltd., which owns 51 percent, and Japanese investment firm Sun Investment. The Swedish manufacturer would be entering a market that includes the Chevrolet Volt, made by former Saab owner General Motors Co. (GM), and Fisker Automotive Inc.’s $103,000 Karma hybrid gasoline-electric sports car, models that have been the subject of U.S. probes following vehicle fires.“We’re striving to be a world-leading company for electric cars,” Mattias Bergman, a spokesman for National Electric Vehicle Sweden, said at a press conference in Trollhaettan. “It’s not only about China being a big market for electric cars, it’s also about China having the ability to make the investments required and build the needed infrastructure...
 

escobar

Brigadier
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Total assets of China's banking sector had risen 19.1 percent year-on-year to 105.8 trillion yuan (16.8 trillion U.S. dollars) by the end of 2011, a report released by the People's Bank of China (PBOC), the central bank, showed Friday.

The number of business outlets of financial institutes totaled 200,000 as of the end of 2011 and the sector's workforce added 111,000 people from a year earlier to reach 3.19 million, said the report on the country's regional financial operation in 2011.

Financial institutes in China's eastern parts accounted for 60.2 percent of the sector's total assets, the report said.

In terms of asset growth, the western regions expanded most in 2011 at a rate of 21.8 percent, followed by 20.4 percent in the east, 18.6 percent in the northeast, and 17.5 percent in the middle parts.

Also, due to growing public awareness to asset management and the creation of more financial products, deposits growth continued to slow, with the expanding rate in the east, middle, west and northeast areas pulling back 3.7, 1.1, 1.6, and 0.3 percentage points, respectively, according to the report.
 
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