China's SCS Strategy Thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
Curious that the article only mentioned on Russia. But the Socialist Republic of Vietnam is saying no the US as well.
I always had great admiration for Vietnam. Ideologically and by temperament, Vietnam is the closest country to China. And a worthy adversary in war.

First Philippines, now Vietnam declares neutrality. Another nail in the coffin for the Pivot.
Vietnam is trying to exploiting America's fear of the reemergence of China, while Russian-Chinese relations are improving and there are less room to cause trouble. But as Vietnam recently found out, it is not as important as Saudi Arabia or Turkey, so the Beltway Mandarins wouldn't stop their regime change operations. However, since Vietnam is also useful for US efforts to encircle China, regime change would be less official governmental actions, and more through NGOs, popular media, and western journalists.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I thought this is an excellent article . China should meet Duerte offering halfway. And China should not humiliate Philippine. No one deserve better live than the Phillipino. They have once the highest living standard in Asia but felt into poverty due to corruption and mismanagement of the economy by the elite. It pain me to see thousand upon thousand work as a maid in Singapore and Hongkong even though they are highly educated some with university degree. There were huge Chinese colony before the Spanish come since Phillipine is so close to Taiwan. Many Phillipino without knowing have Chinese blood in them. Including this Aquino. HIs mother upon becoming Phillipine President insists on visiting her ancestral home in Fujian to pray on the ancestral hall and declaring not only is she Phillipine president but she is also daughter of this Fujian village. Her familly name is Cojuanco which is corruption of Ko-Juan-ko . Ko is typical southern Chinese family name. and Any Phillipino with co ending mean Koh which is brother and Juan of course is Spanish name. Many Phillipino elite are Chinese Mestizo including the father of the nation. Jose Rizal

Rodrigo Duterte is a fool.

Doesn’t he know that Scarborough Shoal is the place to draw a “
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”? That, with the United States, he and the Philippines could make Xi Jinping “
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” there? That the shoal should be the launching point for a new concerted effort
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“every Chinese overreach, early and often,” and is a dispute worthy of “indecent” operations? He seems blissfully unaware that China’s activities around the shoal, along with its other maritime territorial claims, are
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to China claiming the entire Pacific Ocean and achieving “
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.”

It’s not just foreign voices. Duterte is ignoring Filipinos too. His own predecessor took China to the Hague Tribunal and won just a few months ago—an advantage that Duterte is calmly throwing away. A Filipino law professor
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last April that “Southeast Asian states will not quietly surrender sovereign rights guaranteed by international law. Against overwhelming power, the only logical recourse is to gravitate closer together, and join with external powers.” The expert consensus
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: regional governments “cannot back down because that risks encouraging China to be more aggressive still.”

Yet, in the teeth of the evidence, the government of the Philippines has recently shown itself to be uninterested in drawing lines in the sand, making China lose face, challenging China’s territorial claims or joining the United States as a junior partner in checking China’s rise. To the contrary, President Rodrigo Duterte has declared that
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an “independent posture and independent foreign policy.” Here’s what that policy looks like.

First, the Philippines has been
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that it will conduct bilateral territorial negotiations with China, as opposed to America’s
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of lawsuits or multilateral discussions. Bilateral talks on Chinese investment, infrastructure and trade are being planned first, to promote cooperation before tackling the more difficult territorial issues. “The natural effect of engaging China in other areas of concern will precisely open the door for more open discussions of the [maritime] dispute with the view of resolving the dispute peacefully,” Perfecto Yasay, the Philippine secretary of foreign affairs,
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. This sort of practical engagement will evidently begin next week, as Duterte
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with hundreds of business executives in tow.

Second, President Duterte has declared that the Philippines will no longer conduct patrols with the United States in the South China Sea: “We will not join any expedition or patrolling the sea. I will not allow it because I do not want my country to be involved in a hostile act.” Lest any doubts remain, the Philippines’ defense secretary has since
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.

Third, Duterte has
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that he wants U.S. Special Forces to leave the Philippines, and is looking to China and Russia for arms purchases.

Why is Duterte pursuing such
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? He apparently rejects the
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that have seduced the American commentariat. What myths?

1. China could gracefully submit to the Hague ruling.

2. Amped-up American and allied “resolve” would force China to comply.

3. China’s rejection of the ruling signifies its rejection of international order.

Disagreeing with the ruling of a tribunal in The Hague (not, by the way, the UN, as some
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) hardly expresses an intention to destroy international society or dominate the Pacific. Disagreeing with your local court doesn’t mean that want to overthrow your nation’s government. Duterte isn’t irrational. He prefers to work with China to resolve the dispute in a mutually beneficial way. He agrees with an
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: “Relations between China and the Philippines should go beyond the South China Sea issue.”

Scarborough Shoal
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an abstraction for everything commentators dislike in China: North Korea’s nuclear program, “aerial intrusions” in the East China Sea, “seaborne incursions” in Okinawa Prefecture, human-rights abuses, aircraft demonstrations when U.S. defense secretaries are visiting Beijing, the “calculated humiliation” at the G-20 summit, “economic and trade matters,” and “environmental degradation” in the South China Sea. Among such commentators, the
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: reinforced U.S. primacy, stronger regional alliances and the trumpeting of America’s “undoubted ability to prevail.”

To make Scarborough Shoal—or any other rock or reef of the South China Sea—serve as an abstract picture containing every complaint the United States has about China is foolish and dangerous. Political scientists
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that territory is already the single issue any two states are most likely to fight over. Packing all other issues of contention into a territorial dispute—an exercise in grab-bag hawkishness—is a certain way to enflame the territorial dispute and to make it unsolvable.

There is nothing new here. In the spring of 1913, Russian foreign minister Sergey Sazonov told Serbian prime minister Nikola Pašić, who was eager to extend Serbian territory into the former Ottoman state of Albania, that Russia was not going to risk a war with Austria-Hungary over a few small towns.
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:

Here it is not a matter of Djakova, Dibra and Scutari, but the question is: Is Russia with its friends stronger or weaker than Austria and its friends? The whole Slavic world and everybody else will consider Russia defeated through the policy and threats of Austria. The belief and confidence in Russia will not only be weakened, but it will be annihilated, and the Austrian-German policy will triumph.

This was what dispute abstraction looked like before World War I. Aware that Russia had no actual territorial interest in the small towns of Albania, Pašić abstracted the issue into one of prestige and credibility, attempting to make the dispute a “
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” between Russia and Austria-Hungary (and its ally Germany).
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)

Today in the South China Sea, the Philippines is opting out of dispute abstraction. Duterte apparently cares about
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more than unpopulated reefs, and has decided that the costs of antagonizing China outweigh the benefits of cooperating with it. But segments of America’s foreign policy elite disagree. These elites desire to abstract the territorial disputes of the South and East China Seas into a modern-day “trial of strength.” That is what all the tough talk of “indecent” naval operations and drawing lines in the sand is about. The specific issue hardly matters. According to these elites, China must be put in its place. The way to do this is to reassert American primacy.

Such a perspective is myopic, ahistorical, and foolish. In 1914, a trial of strength
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. In 432 BC, the Corinthians convinced the Spartans that they should stand up to Athens
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. First, they said, Athens was growing stronger and Sparta had done nothing to check its growing power. Second, the Corinthians explained how the Athenians “gradually encroach upon their neighbors,” or what critics today call “
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.” Third, they declared, “The likeliest way of securing peace is . . . to make it perfectly plain that one is resolved not to tolerate aggression” (Thucydides, 1.71)—i.e., to pursue a policy of deterrence. And finally, the Corinthians argued that Sparta had to maintain its “greatness.” Today, we say “primacy,” but the idea is the same. Back in 432 BC, the Spartans were convinced by the argument of the Corinthians, and in 431 a war broke out between Sparta and Athens that would last twenty-seven years and end the Athenian Golden Age. Today, we—the United States and China—risk walking down the same road to war.

Duterte is no fool. He has stepped off the road to war by rejecting the abstraction of disputes. That means considering each dispute individually, seeking to understand the other side’s argument, refraining from pursuing a
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position, and recognizing that in a world with multiple great powers, the only way to live at peace is to ignore areas of minor disagreement and to respect one another’s vital interests. If, in your reading of history, you find that being pushy is a better way to get along, by all means, speak up. If not, then no more myopia, abstraction and presumption about other states’ purported interests, please.

Jared McKinney is a Non-Resident Fellow at the Pangoal Institute in Beijing, a Junior Non-Resident Fellow at the Center for the National Interest in Washington, DC, and an incoming Ph.D student in International Relations at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, Nanyang Technological University, Singapore.
 
... In the spring of 1913, Russian foreign minister Sergey Sazonov told Serbian prime minister Nikola Pašić ...
... Albania, Pašić abstracted the issue into one of prestige and credibility, attempting to make the dispute a “
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” between Russia and Austria-Hungary (and its ally Germany).
since I knew right in August 1914 tsarist Russia had gone to war against Austro-Hungarian Empire because of Serbia, I had to read that link inside
(it's
Why America and China Today Are Like Pre–World War I Europe
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) to get this "Albania connection", but yeah it's interesting
 

delft

Brigadier
I had always spoken highly of Vietnam's cautious and balanced approach when it comes to deal with big powers, while lamented that Philippine appeared to be more emotional and hotheaded without her best national interest in mind. Well I guess it was a bit premature to judge Philippine. They have become smarter and Duterte is trying to strike a balance among the US, China and Russia to extract maximum benefits for Philippine. Meanwhile,

Vietnam says no to foreign military base on its soil
I wondered why Russia said it would consider re-establishing the naval base in Cam Ranh. Seeing this Vietnamese answer I consider it likely that the Russian remark was made to enable Vietnam to give this answer.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well the US lives by old beliefs that don't apply to the world today. That's why they're shocked by the moves in the Philippines. The US thinks loyalty to them is automatic and people naturally love Americans. If people were not influence by "evil" players like governments and they were left to their natural devices, they would automatically love and follow Americans. That's why you have Americans think they can easily muster up an alliance to go gang-up for war with China taunting it all the time. Or if the communist government in China were to collapse, a pro-US government, especially if it were democratic, would automatically take its place. That belief was proven wrong in regards to the Arab Spring. But still in denial because they like the idea that people automatically love them. They want to believe that to be true. Hence why they were surprised by Duterte. When running for President, the US loved the very rhetoric from him... against China. By reading news articles that quote Philippine officials it all seems to sum up that the Philippines doesn't like being treated as a minor partner expected to obey orders from the US and other rich Asian countries. Not the unconditional love that they expected, huh? That's where some Americans' belief that everyone will follow the US blindly into war falls apart. Why then were the pro-US position pinning all their hopes on what the Philippines did while they stood back and maintained their countries' stable economic relations with China? I've mentioned this before that the US expects allies in Asia to do all the dirty work against China while US allies expect the US to do all the dirty work. That's why the US will never muster up allies to do anything against China. China is supposedly the aggressor here. Wouldn't that be enough for them to form an alliance against China disregarding their need to make money from China? That's because again the world doesn't operate like a fairy tale where everything works in black and white and China just instinctively acted on its "evil" instincts. There's cause and effect. There's action and then there's a reaction.

The US has been calling for China and the Philippines to resolve their disputes peacefully. Yet the US seems to be worried over this trip by Duterte to China. Isn't that what's working for a peaceful resolution is all about? Is it because before the US was expecting to dictate terms? They wouldn't be worried over this meeting if it wasn't expected to be US interests before Philippine interests. If that's been the case all along despite John Kerry's last visit to China where he declared to the Chinese that the US takes no position in the disputes in the South China Sea, then it's very clear why US-Philippine relations have soured. Vietnam declaring no foreign bases in their country is probably a result to what's happening in the Philippines. Asians countries are returning to their neutral positions before the Pivot to Asia because they don't want to be caught on the bad consequences of any side.
 

KIENCHIN

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well the US lives by old beliefs that don't apply to the world today. That's why they're shocked by the moves in the Philippines. The US thinks loyalty to them is automatic and people naturally love Americans. If people were not influence by "evil" players like governments and they were left to their natural devices, they would automatically love and follow Americans. That's why you have Americans think they can easily muster up an alliance to go gang-up for war with China taunting it all the time. Or if the communist government in China were to collapse, a pro-US government, especially if it were democratic, would automatically take its place. That belief was proven wrong in regards to the Arab Spring. But still in denial because they like the idea that people automatically love them. They want to believe that to be true. Hence why they were surprised by Duterte. When running for President, the US loved the very rhetoric from him... against China. By reading news articles that quote Philippine officials it all seems to sum up that the Philippines doesn't like being treated as a minor partner expected to obey orders from the US and other rich Asian countries. Not the unconditional love that they expected, huh? That's where some Americans' belief that everyone will follow the US blindly into war falls apart. Why then were the pro-US position pinning all their hopes on what the Philippines did while they stood back and maintained their countries' stable economic relations with China? I've mentioned this before that the US expects allies in Asia to do all the dirty work against China while US allies expect the US to do all the dirty work. That's why the US will never muster up allies to do anything against China. China is supposedly the aggressor here. Wouldn't that be enough for them to form an alliance against China disregarding their need to make money from China? That's because again the world doesn't operate like a fairy tale where everything works in black and white and China just instinctively acted on its "evil" instincts. There's cause and effect. There's action and then there's a reaction.

The US has been calling for China and the Philippines to resolve their disputes peacefully. Yet the US seems to be worried over this trip by Duterte to China. Isn't that what's working for a peaceful resolution is all about? Is it because before the US was expecting to dictate terms? They wouldn't be worried over this meeting if it wasn't expected to be US interests before Philippine interests. If that's been the case all along despite John Kerry's last visit to China where he declared to the Chinese that the US takes no position in the disputes in the South China Sea, then it's very clear why US-Philippine relations have soured. Vietnam declaring no foreign bases in their country is probably a result to what's happening in the Philippines. Asians countries are returning to their neutral positions before the Pivot to Asia because they don't want to be caught on the bad consequences of any side.
I personally think Vietnam for one is hedging it's bet by declaring itself neutral just in case Trump wins the election and scrap Obama's and Hillary's pivot to Asia policy and they are left hung out to be dried with a giant and resurrging neighbour that they just burn bridges with. The Vietnamese having co-existed with imperial China for so many centuries is the best people in the know that they are not hegemons like the US that dictates rather then coexists with anyone who don't see it their way.
 
The lame stream Western media demonizes China not necessarily to support some nefarious Washington agenda, but because most are lazy lemmings wedded in group think, and Red China is a target-rich environment.

I'll admit US is pursuing its national interests, and The Pivot is latest visible thrust, supported by hosts of benign and malignant agencies and alliances, both visible and invisible to the public. But, what of it? That's what countries do, as they should. Great powers do it with bigger footprints. Nothing unusual about it.

China, on the other hand, isn't the "laissez-faire" entity you claim. Quite to the contrary. Like US and every other great power in history, China has and will continue to pursue their national interests with gusto. In the South China Sea, it will continue to divide ASEAN when it feels the need, with the short-term objective of having the strongest presence in the SCS, and medium-term objective of making SCS the Sino-Caribbean (just like the US did in the Greater Caribbean). The Red Dynasty's long-term objective is likely to leverage the Sino-Caribbean and establish a Sino-Monroe Doctrine, followed by ejecting the US from Asia. So, China is hardly laissez-faire in SCS & SE Asia; not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow.

Most Western media both mainstream and alternative indeed support nefarious Western political agendas in demonizing China through self-censorship, ethnocentricity, and prejudice regardless of whether this is self-aware, intentional, and co-ordinated, or not.

Looking at their historic pattern of behavior, longstanding foreign policy culture, strategic goals, as well as most importantly actual freedom allowed others vis-à-vis itself, China's international relations is definitely laissez-faire compared to the US', as well as all other current and former colonial expeditionary powers.

US behavior is unique in the frequency and extent of its actions to heavily influence, control, or destroy most aspects of life in other countries and the international order, as well as in the extreme degree of its rhetoric and implied or stated goals including being the sole superpower of the world.

From actually using WMDs (i.e. chemical weapons in SE Asia), to providing WMDs to others and enabling others to use it (i.e. chemical weapons for Saddam Hussein's Iraq vs Iran), claiming to be the world's beacon of democracy and freedom while overthrowing democratic governments or supporting oppressive/dictatorial ones (i.e. Iran and Saudi Arabia), constant widespread psychological warfare/propaganda all over the world (i.e. "radio free XXX"), countless military and covert actions against sovereign governments and grass roots political movements in foreign lands for a variety of self-serving justifications from maintaining colonial/neo-colonial economic arrangements, military basing and/or testing, political arrangements to allow any or all of the above... these are just some of the more obvious examples of how the US is very much more controlling than a laissez-faire China.
 
Duterte standing up for the Philippines all around.

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SOUTH CHINA SEA | Sun Oct 16, 2016 | 5:17am EDT
Philippine leader says will raise arbitration case with China, won't bargain

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte said on Sunday he would raise a controversial arbitral ruling on the South China Sea with China's leaders, and vowed not to surrender any sovereignty or deviate from the July award by the tribunal in The Hague.

Duterte said his trip to China this week represented a turning point in bilateral ties, but he acknowledged there was some public concern about his rapid rapprochement moves and reassured Filipinos that would not impact on the country's maritime sovereignty.

In comments that will not sit comfortably with the Chinese leadership, Duterte said the decision by the Permanent Court of Arbitration would be talked about and the parameters of the award would be discussed, but there would be no "hard imposition" of it.

The ruling dealt a blow to China's extensive claims in the South China Sea. Beijing has refused to recognize the case and has chided any country telling it to abide by the ruling.

"I will not bargain anywhere, we will continue to insist that is ours," he told a news conference in his home city of Davao.

"The international tribunal decision will be taken up."

The unpredictable president's moves to strongly engage China, just a few months after an arbitral award that sparked fears in the region of a backlash by Beijing in the South China Sea, mark a striking reversal in Philippine foreign policy since he took office on June 30.

Duterte goes to China on Tuesday with at least 200 members of the Philippine business elite to pave the way for what he calls a new commercial alliance. Among the areas expected to be prioritized are financing for Philippine businesses, farm exports, major infrastructure investments and tourism.

It comes amid a torrent of anti-American comments by Duterte that have cast a cloud over a longstanding relationship with the United States.

While he continues to chastise and hurl abuse at Washington for expressing concern about his bloody war on drugs, he insists his strategic gambit is about abiding by a constitution that enshrines an independent foreign policy.

He spoke of his intention to "intensify" trade ties and work closer with China, but would not avoid discussing what is a bone of contention between them.

"There will be no hard impositions. We will talk, we will maybe paraphrase everything in the judgment and set the limits of our territories, the special economic zones," he said of meeting.

"It will be no bargaining. It is ours and many of you are wanting to ask the question. No bargaining."

Duterte's comments might rattle China, which has spoken glowingly about the new partnership, but may not want to hear about an international ruling that it lost comprehensively, and included the invalidation of the U-shaped "nine-dashed line" featured on Chinese maps and passports.

(Reporting by Martin Petty)
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well the US lives by old beliefs that don't apply to the world today. That's why they're shocked by the moves in the Philippines. The US thinks loyalty to them is automatic and people naturally love Americans. If people were not influence by "evil" players like governments and they were left to their natural devices, they would automatically love and follow Americans. That's why you have Americans think they can easily muster up an alliance to go gang-up for war with China taunting it all the time. Or if the communist government in China were to collapse, a pro-US government, especially if it were democratic, would automatically take its place. That belief was proven wrong in regards to the Arab Spring. But still in denial because they like the idea that people automatically love them. They want to believe that to be true. Hence why they were surprised by Duterte. When running for President, the US loved the very rhetoric from him... against China. By reading news articles that quote Philippine officials it all seems to sum up that the Philippines doesn't like being treated as a minor partner expected to obey orders from the US and other rich Asian countries. Not the unconditional love that they expected, huh? That's where some Americans' belief that everyone will follow the US blindly into war falls apart. Why then were the pro-US position pinning all their hopes on what the Philippines did while they stood back and maintained their countries' stable economic relations with China? I've mentioned this before that the US expects allies in Asia to do all the dirty work against China while US allies expect the US to do all the dirty work. That's why the US will never muster up allies to do anything against China. China is supposedly the aggressor here. Wouldn't that be enough for them to form an alliance against China disregarding their need to make money from China? That's because again the world doesn't operate like a fairy tale where everything works in black and white and China just instinctively acted on its "evil" instincts. There's cause and effect. There's action and then there's a reaction.

The US has been calling for China and the Philippines to resolve their disputes peacefully. Yet the US seems to be worried over this trip by Duterte to China. Isn't that what's working for a peaceful resolution is all about? Is it because before the US was expecting to dictate terms? They wouldn't be worried over this meeting if it wasn't expected to be US interests before Philippine interests. If that's been the case all along despite John Kerry's last visit to China where he declared to the Chinese that the US takes no position in the disputes in the South China Sea, then it's very clear why US-Philippine relations have soured. Vietnam declaring no foreign bases in their country is probably a result to what's happening in the Philippines. Asians countries are returning to their neutral positions before the Pivot to Asia because they don't want to be caught on the bad consequences of any side.

Mainly because US didn't give enough Money to Philippines.
For all its moves to support to US, Philippines only received 30Mil, that's chump change. Some one in Philipppines said that's money for the Beggars.
 
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