China Flanker Thread II

[FORBIN]

Many Flanker so not easy have all in mind but not only Su-35 get OVC, Su-30SM MKI have him since almost 15 years and mainly the first operationnal fighter to have, MKM also but a Siamese brother Malaysian in fact

In more Rafale and Typhoon don't have and these girls are very agile 30° ITR same for Jas-39 almost F-22 to 35° i have about 32° for Su-35.

 

[AndrewS]

There are ongoing reports that the J-11D is undergoing delays and problems stemming from its inadequate powerplant and airframe. Don't be surprised if the PLAAF orders more Su-35s to cover themselves while the J-11D fights to see another day.

I don't see the PLAAF ordering any more Su-35.

They've got working examples of the aircraft now, with the avionics and engines.

They can wait a few years for the J-11D bugs to be worked out, as it doesn't add too much over the current combination of J-11B and J-20 production.

 

[FORBIN]

Not necessarily, the USAF is maintaining a healthy mix of F-15C's and high block number F-16's, no doubt China will continue to build high letter Flankers as well!

A fifth gen is overkill for so many missions, and comes at a price, about 2X in real life the cost of a J-20.

Exact and a Su-35 want 70 millions $ a Su-30Sm about 40 Chinese J-11 surely same maximum so you have almost 1 for 2.

The Su-35 is the best 4th generation fighter only Typhoon with AESA Captor can competed for range
AAM load in general max 8 for both rafale 6 but possible 8 on 2 others HP tested, readies.


but righ now only Kuwait have buy Typhoon with AESA Captor, RAF possible Western IRST have a range a little superior to Russian the first Mig-29/Su-27P/S OEPS-29 15 km , OLS-27 detect 15 km but fired on ennemy to 15 only max, now 90 Su-35 OLS-35 but for detection no engagement, Pirate, OSF etc... 100 -140 max.
Su-30MKK, Su-30SM OLS-30 detect to 70 km max
Su-27SM presumably OLS-27K detect to 90 km max
In practice IRST allow to fire up to 50 - 60 kms

But the Su-35s don' t have AG munitions panoply as Western fighters in more surely less good designator pod the Su-34 have an internal.

 

[Lethe]

Not necessarily, the USAF is maintaining a healthy mix of F-15C's and high block number F-16's, no doubt China will continue to build high letter Flankers as well!

I disagree. USAF isn't maintaining F-15Cs because it is the optimal solution, but because F-22 production was truncated. Similarly F-16s aren't receiving deep life extensions because it is the optimal solution, but because the F-35 program is running late. USAF is muddling through as best it can (or as best as Congress will allow) -- not presenting an ideal playbook for others to emulate.

It is certainly true that non-VLO aircraft will have a place in PLAAF for decades to come, just as they will elsewhere. But those aircraft have already been produced, most of them more recently than anything in USAF service. There is no need to prolong the production of non-VLO platforms once their VLO equivalents have reached full production status. J-11 is merely the first Chinese aircraft to be replaced in this manner.

Summary: China will have non-VLO aircraft pouring out of its ears for the foreseeable future without adding more to the mix by extending J-11 production past 2020. Further, doing so would merely distract resources from more useful J-20, J-15 & J-16 projects.

 

[FORBIN]

I disagree. USAF isn't maintaining F-15Cs because it is the optimal solution, but because F-22 production was truncated. Similarly F-16s aren't receiving deep life extensions because it is the optimal solution, but because the F-35 program is running late. USAF is muddling through as best it can (or as best as Congress will allow) -- not presenting an ideal playbook for others to emulate.

It is certainly true that non-VLO aircraft will have a place in PLAAF for decades to come, just as they will elsewhere. But those aircraft have already been produced, most of them more recently than anything in USAF service. There is no need to prolong the production of non-VLO platforms once their VLO equivalents have reached full production status. J-11 is merely the first Chinese aircraft to be rendered obsolescent in that respect.

Summary: China will have non-VLO aircraft pouring out of its ears for the foreseeable future without adding more to the mix by extending J-11 production past 2020.

For USAF agree on the fund...
But VLO utility can be also questionnable with new Stealth coz with these birds much less detectable there will be much more rarely used in Dogfight obviously, to consider IRST but despite their utility vs stealth their ranges don' t want a radar, far

But i don't trust combat to very long range in practice not beyond 150 km after the bad guys can be the good guy .. or execptionnaly vs big targets assets AWACS or Bombers no stealth ofc no between fighters.
" Remains one utility " for VLO better agility more chance to escape to missile but vs a missile capacle 40 G it is not even for 5° sec turn rate in more you escape.

But I really regret a Winchester can be obsolete

 

[Air Force Brat]

For USAF agree on the fund...
But VLO utility can be also questionnable with new Stealth coz with these birds much less detectable there will be much more rarely used in Dogfight obviously, to consider IRST but despite their utility vs stealth their ranges don' t want a radar, far

But i don't trust combat to very long range in practice not beyond 150 km after the bad guys can be the good guy .. or execptionnaly vs big targets assets AWACS or Bombers no stealth ofc no between fighters.
" Remains one utility " for VLO better agility more chance to escape to missile but vs a missile capacle 40 G it is not even for 5° sec turn rate in more you escape.

But I really regret a Winchester can be obsolete

Actually the Winchester in 30-30 cal is a very good "Stopper", much more reliable than 5.56! A good man with a Winchester is still gonna beat the average dude with a "black rifle", I've got both, still like that old 30-30... HEH! HEH! HEH!

 

[Air Force Brat]

A pilot who gets himself into situations where he needs super-manoeuvrability is a pilot who doesn't deserve to fly.

Energy is life, agility helps only when it doesn't compromise energy state. The fanciful rolls and turns endemic to TVC robs pilots of energy; it's a form of agility that gets pilots killed by turning them into a sitting duck. I'm sure there will be many lessons learnt from the use of Su-35s but the combat prowess of TVC will not be one of them.

Really I'm not paying you enough bro, you just keep proving the AFB is 97.3% right, 100% of the time! what am I paying you??? remind me to give you a raise!

I really think you need a reality check? China did indeed buy 24 SU-35s from the Russians, OVT is the main reason, they could have bought Flankers without OVT, but they didn't. So you probably ought to take this revelation and pronouncement of judgement on fighter pilots who really do know what the score is??? to the PLAAF and tell them how "out of touch" they are!

I AM a PILOT, I understand energy, and energy management in a manner you will never know, most of the time your posts are excellent, but you're out of your league here!

 

[Air Force Brat]

I disagree. USAF isn't maintaining F-15Cs because it is the optimal solution, but because F-22 production was truncated. Similarly F-16s aren't receiving deep life extensions because it is the optimal solution, but because the F-35 program is running late. USAF is muddling through as best it can (or as best as Congress will allow) -- not presenting an ideal playbook for others to emulate.

It is certainly true that non-VLO aircraft will have a place in PLAAF for decades to come, just as they will elsewhere. But those aircraft have already been produced, most of them more recently than anything in USAF service. There is no need to prolong the production of non-VLO platforms once their VLO equivalents have reached full production status. J-11 is merely the first Chinese aircraft to be replaced in this manner.

Summary: China will have non-VLO aircraft pouring out of its ears for the foreseeable future without adding more to the mix by extending J-11 production past 2020. Further, doing so would merely distract resources from more useful J-20, J-15 & J-16 projects.

We are still building lots of F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s,, and people keep buying them, smart people that may not have the money to buy "HI" end aircraft, the F-15 is still very, very good! wouldn't hurt my feelings if we bought some of those "Silent Eagles" ourselves...

Really you don't need 5 Gen capability everyday, but its awfully nice to have if you are facing a Hi end threat, as you can do more, with less!

I'm gonna check out of this discussion before it departs further from "reality"?

 

[jobjed]

I really think you need a reality check? China did indeed buy 24 SU-35s from the Russians, OVT is the main reason, they could have bought Flankers without OVT, but they didn't.

Russia doesn't have any heavy fighters for sale besides Su-35. Whether or not the PLAAF was interested in TVC doesn't matter, if they want a fighter from Russia, TVC comes attached.

Also, we have no idea what the main reason was for purchasing Su-35s. Word on the rumour mill is they need them to make up for a shortfall in numbers. In any case, the USAF wasn't impressed by India's MKIs with their flashy TVCs and I'd wager the PLAAF wouldn't be, either. Like I said, they will learn a lot from operating and dissecting Su-35s but applying TVC in combat will not be one of them... unless they're feeling suicidal.

 

[Lethe]

We are still building lots of F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s,, and people keep buying them, smart people that may not have the money to buy "HI" end aircraft, the F-15 is still very, very good! wouldn't hurt my feelings if we bought some of those "Silent Eagles" ourselves...

USAF hasn't received a non-VLO combat aircraft (ok, a non-VLO "fast jet") since 2001 when F-15E deliveries concluded. The only people still buying F-15s, F-16s, or F/A-18s are those who aren't cleared to receive F-22 or F-35, or those who need deliveries before those VLO aircraft are ready. Ok, and (maybe) Israel.

Most of China's current inventory is decades younger than USAF's non-VLO inventory. Even without J-11D (or J-10D, which would be a rather more sensible project), China is going to have >1000 non-VLO fast jets buzzing around for decades to come. There is no need, once equivalent next-generation platforms reach production status, to add even more legacy airframes to the inventory.

Really you don't need 5 Gen capability everyday, but its awfully nice to have if you are facing a Hi end threat, as you can do more, with less!

China faces only high-end threats, unlike USAF (which, again, has not received a non-VLO fast jet in fifteen years now) or European powers, China has no interest in bombing third-world nations. As such China has a greater imperative to transition to next-generation VLO platforms as rapidly and completely as possible than US or European nations do.