China Flanker Thread II

[GreenestGDP]

Recalling the encounter between USN P-8 and PLAAF J-11BH on the SCS last year ... ...

1) The Pentagon were declaring that the J-11BH pilot ( sn #24 ) was performing
unsaved maneuverings, and harassing the USN P-8 who was flying the almost daily routine military duty above PRC EEZ.

2) Yet, OTOH ... ...I noticed on all the daily PLAAF flight exercises video of J-11xx and J-10A from all military regions,

... ... all PLAAF pilots are performing multiple zig zag hard turns while changing Altitude upward and downward, and performing a steady diet of multiple left Barrel Rolls and multiple right Barrel Rolls.
These so called unsafe wild PLAAF pilots maneuverings seems to be the basic standard PLAAF pilots flying technique.
And, during the daily confrontational exercises, the PLAAF pilots are allowed to tangle each other aircrafts as close as 50 meters.


***
Given the above facts, and ... ...

3) The AESA Radar lock is based on the center axis of the target aircraft body, and the IR optical lock is based on the center axis of Field of View.

4) By performing multiple zig zag hard turns while changing Altitude upward and downward, the PLAAF pilots are preventing his aircraft from being locked by the tailing opfor aircraft.

5) By performing multiple Barrel Rolls maneuverings, the PLAAF pilots are preventing his aircraft from being locked by the tailing opfor aircraft.

6) By flying and passing very close the PLAAF Flankers pilots can intentionally direct his engine nozzles at the P-8 and then turn on the Flanker After Burner Thrust for the purpose of destabilizing the USN P-8, so that it loses control.


Are ( #3, #4, #5, and #6 ) true statements ?
If not, please explain why is a wrong statement ?


AFB or anyone else who are pilots ...can you please explain the above ?


The regular PLAAF pilot who did the criss crossing and Barrel Roll
against the USN P-8. This pilot was not the Golden Helmet pilot.

 

[asif iqbal]

Either way these type of close quarter manoeuvres are not helpful

There is a common practice between air forces who follows a standard procedure and I am sure a barrel role is not one of them

 

[Jeff Head]

Either way these type of close quarter manoeuvres are not helpful

There is a common practice between air forces who follows a standard procedure and I am sure a barrel role is not one of them

Amen, Asif.

I am absolutely confidant that a barrel role is not one of them.

No doubt about it...in this instance the J-11B pilot hazarded both aircraft and risked a potentially very dangerous mishap and escalation.

But it is old news...no need to rehash is all again. Green, unless there is absolute new news regarding it, let's not rehash old news just to bring up our impressions of it.

Thanks.

 

[Scratch]

I understand the initial topic is way out of date, but there is so much ... non-sense really, thrown around it needs mentioning on a general level.

Aerobatic maneuvers are certainly part of the training routine of fighter jocks as they provide the operater with an intimate understanding of how the jet behaves & reacts in "unnormal" attitudes and how you controll it there & operate it at it's limits.
But they do have no place in intercepting / shadowing / identifying foreign aircraft flying mostly straight and level. Here, even if it wasn't being outright dangerous, it displays a severe lack of professionalism, and manners, really.

Furthermore, Barrel Rolls, or other high G maneuvers are certainly not a way to throw off a tracking radar by itself. Not with todays tech. If you combine it with EW use there may be a point, but that adds a whole other set off aggressive behavior.

You may go aggressively to a notch to throw off a hostile PD radar by providing no relative speed, but once there, you're fixed in a shallow turn.

Finally, deliberately endagering another aircraft with your jet blast from close proximity is so outlandish & outrageous that, if it works out, it can and probably will rightly be considered an act of deliberate aggression.

 

[Blitzo]

I understand the initial topic is way out of date, but there is so much ... non-sense really, thrown around it needs mentioning on a general level.

Aerobatic maneuvers are certainly part of the training routine of fighter jocks as they provide the operater with an intimate understanding of how the jet behaves & reacts in "unnormal" attitudes and how you controll it there & operate it at it's limits.
But they do have no place in intercepting / shadowing / identifying foreign aircraft flying mostly straight and level. Here, even if it wasn't being outright dangerous, it displays a severe lack of professionalism, and manners, really.

Furthermore, Barrel Rolls, or other high G maneuvers are certainly not a way to throw off a tracking radar by itself. Not with todays tech. If you combine it with EW use there may be a point, but that adds a whole other set off aggressive behavior.

You may go aggressively to a notch to throw off a hostile PD radar by providing no relative speed, but once there, you're fixed in a shallow turn.

Finally, deliberately endagering another aircraft with your jet blast from close proximity is so outlandish & outrageous that, if it works out, it can and probably will rightly be considered an act of deliberate aggression.

Agreed.

Personally I think there was no reason to bring up this topic again, and I'm bewildered as to how anyone could think why a nimble fighter aircraft would need to conduct such maneuvres to avoid the radar of a surveillance.

In fact, since news of the intercept first emerged all that time ago, I had openly speculated that it was probably a deliberate and calculated move by the pilot to conduct a more pointed interception, and even suggested if it may have been allowed by some higher ups to send a message to the US about the surveillance flights.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Agreed.

Personally I think there was no reason to bring up this topic again, and I'm bewildered as to how anyone could think why a nimble fighter aircraft would need to conduct such maneuvres to avoid the radar of a surveillance.

In fact, since news of the intercept first emerged all that time ago, I had openly speculated that it was probably a deliberate and calculated move by the pilot to conduct a more pointed interception, and even suggested if it may have been allowed by some higher ups to send a message to the US about the surveillance flights.

Well, the thinking probably went like this: if you just warned them by radio several times to stop and flew nicely, they can comfortably ignore you as long as you're not going to shoot them. If you threaten to shoot them down, then that's a very severe escalation and now they'll say you're starting war. They might come back with fighter escorts to call your bluff and now you'll have to decide whether you want to back down and look soft or go up there with more fighters and that's how stuff gets hot. But if you do these hairy maneuvers, the P-8 now really wants to turn back because it feels unsafe, but also, isn't going to say you've made a deliberate severe military threat so they'll probably just turn back and complain a lot, and that's the intended effect.

Obviously, if you screw up, there could be a huge accident like the J-8 collision in 2001; both jets could be lost and a lot of people will be very angry, but that's still not going to escalate things as if you shot at them.

 

[Engineer]

USN wants to play the "it is international airspace, I can do whatever I want" game, so USN is in no position to impose its definition of safety. PLAAF played its hands exactly as it should.

 

[mr.bean]

USN wants to play the "it is international airspace, I can do whatever I want" game, so USN is in no position to impose its definition of safety. PLAAF played its hands exactly as it should.

i'm just happy and glad the PLAAF went there to greet the USN P8 plane. anyway they wish to fly i'm all for it! after all these islands are built up it should be easier to send planes up to greet USN or other planes that fly around that ''international'' airspace.

 

[GreenestGDP]

Sorry, I think there is a misunderstanding on my post # 5181 above.
It was not intended as rehash of 2014 encounter between USN P-8 and J-11BH.

Since I am not a pilot, I am asking clarification on the dogfight flying technique on Super Maneuverable aircraft such as Su-30MKK, J-10A, and J-11xx.

According to the CCTV or Hangzhou Shachang video reports ... ...
There is a Frenzy trend within all PLAAF pilots.

All PLAAF pilots who are flying the Fighter and Interceptor aircrafts are motivated to practise very hard every day to beat the Golden Helmet Champions on their Military Region.

Because PLAAF central command is using the outcome of the daily exercise and the annual Golden Helmet Combat Competition as a tangible, fair, and transparent way to measure which pilots are suppose to be promoted into higher leadership positions.

Given continuous aircraft modifications and upgrade over the years, ... ...
Many PLAAF regiment commanders are proactively bringing and consulting the top local Aerodynamic Scientists to scientifically measure and re-calculate their aircrafts maximum and minimum physical SAFE operating limits in terms of Maximum Maneuvers, Minimum Speed, and Minimum Altitude envelopes that each type of aircraft can handle.

Thus, each pilot understand and precisely know how far he or she can push each type of aircraft, and understand the nuances of opponent aircraft maximum and minimum maneuvering limits, in order to setup the SAM Killzone during the dogfight.

Since the 1st Golden Helmet Combat Competition in 2011, every day all PLAAF pilots using Su-30MKK, J-10A, and J-11xx are practising these
2 combined dogfight maneuvers: ... ...

1) begin with Multiple--Left--Barrel--Rolls and Multiple--Right--Barrel--Rolls, and after the Barrel Rolls, then next perform ... ...

2) Hard--Turns left and right while changing Altitude upward and downward

3) and then position your aircraft to tail the opfor aircraft

... ... or the reverse

4) begin with Multiple--Zig--Zag--Hard--Turns left and right while changing Altitude upward and downward and after the Zig--Zag--Hard--Turn, then next perform ... ...

5) Multiple--Left--Barrel--Rolls and Multiple--Right--Barrel--Rolls.

6) and then position your aircraft to tail the opfor aircraft

NOTES:
BTW, some PLAAF pilots are incorporating and integrating all those unique Acrobatic moves that only FLANKER can perform into their dogfighting technique and developing creative setup in Baiting--and--Luring--opponent aircraft.

Simply put a BVR distance of 500 km between opposing aircraft can
become WVR distance in a hurry. It only takes less than 10 minutes
for both aircraft to meet face to face.
Thus, it is 1 more nail for the overhyped BVR combat that is
insanely promoted by certain manufacture.

Just to clarify, being Stealthy is helpful, but you can not avoid
WVR combat.

***
Thus, the rumours of PLAAF buying Su-35S is making more and more sense every day.
For those who are still doubtful ... ...
PLA and AVIC will NEVER sell or export their Sino Flanker derivatives to any other nation, no matter how much they have improved their Sino Flanker. If the basic airframe is a Flanker, then it will never be exported. And, Sukhoi believes this guarantee from PLA and AVIC.

===

For those who are pilots, such as AFB ( whose #1 hobby is flying ) ... ...

Could you please enlighten me that the above PLAAF pilots combined maneuvers are very effective in preventing and breaking up the tailing opfor aircraft or incoming missile Radar Lock and the opfor Infra--Red--Lock ??

The combined maneuvers are very effective because the Radar lock is based on the center axis of the target aircraft body, and the IR optical lock is based on the Center Axis of IR Field--of--View.

Does the above combined maneuvers make sense ??
If not, please explain why ??


Flanker J-11B and J-11BH on SCS



Honoring the Flanker Top Notch
Chief Designer Mikhail Simonov
and his team in SUKHOI

 

[GreenestGDP]

... ...
Furthermore, Barrel Rolls, or other high G maneuvers are certainly not a way to throw off a tracking radar by itself. Not with todays tech. If you combine it with EW use there may be a point, but that adds a whole other set off aggressive behavior.

You may go aggressively to a notch to throw off a hostile PD radar by providing no relative speed, but once there, you're fixed in a shallow turn.

You have misunderstood my post # 5181.
It was not about how to greet and say hello to opfor aircraft.

It was about why BVR combat is a marketing hoax,
and why Super Maneuverability is the key to aerial combat ?

Can you please explain your opinion on --

why Barrel Rolls, or other high G maneuvers are certainly not a way to throw off

a tracking radar or tracking Infra Red Sensors ??