This is a really good point. Quoting it so I can find it later.
China demographics thread.
- Thread starter gadgetcool5
- Start date
This is a really good point. Quoting it so I can find it later.
Shit that's like a quarter of US GDP, they gotta ban that.
Not really. And even if you think so, how does it matter? The fact still stays the same.
Absolutely, give me some time to compile these stats, I am travelling currently so I will get back to you in a week.
@manqiangrexue
Please give me some time to respond to you, travelling currently, sorry for the delay.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Another point while you're at it: the biggest reason for which I am against punitive measures for childlessness is that people are split into 2 kinds, those who want kids and those who don't.
Those who don't want kids will never be punished into having them. There is no tax that you could levy on them that would make them instead think that life would be easier to just have kids because having kids turns one's life into a whole new situation. The situation is that now, your life is no longer about you but about catering to the growth and needs of your children. The people who don't want kids are selfish; they don't want to have anyone they need to take care of and they don't care that they are denying their parents the joy of ever having grandkids. They don't care about anyone other themselves and their ability to go on vacation, have free time, and spend money on their own desires. These people are good only to be used for what they can produce for the country when they are capable, and to be let go to pass peacefully when they retire. Their contributions represent a substantial part of China's power in this critical moment fighting against the US and the West. And for this, if you put punitive taxes on them, it would only drive them to go somewhere else and use their abilities to help a rival nation, for the pay and lifestyle offered, of course. Even if you could make them have kids, you shouldn't want to. Parents imbue kids with their own values and they will raise self-centered kids who want to take from society rather than contribute to it. They may even be deliquents because of lack of care and a perceived unwelcomness surrounding the circumstances for which they were born. That's not the type of people China needs so let them live out their useful years and then let them die in peace and die out.
The people we want to focus on are the people who want to have kids but either biologically can't or are hindered from doing so by financial strain. For the former, science is the answer and we're working on it. But for the latter, it's massive tax breaks, governmental financial support, guaranteed full scholarships, pay raises, preferential treatment for housing, free lifetime passes to all public transport, all public services, to all parks, museums, movies, even the private ones (government will pay for them a heavily discounted rate) basically a government-backed AAA pass on steroids. That will induce these people to have kids and have more and more kids. The guys who have been here longer than you know that I've had 1 kid by surrogacy, am currently awaiting my second child, and plan to do 2 more, all by surrogacy. That's how many I think I can afford to care for and have time to educate. If I thought I could do more, I would; I'd love to do 10+ if I could because my children are my genetic legacy. So by subsidizing this, we can make it so that people who understand the importance of children can have as many kids as they want and they can represent the next generation of China while the childless fade out as they die from age.
This is why I think all rewards, no punishment is the way forward. We don't need to bring up the TRF for all Chinese, just double overtime for those who want to be helped while leaving those who are beyond help to their own fate.
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In reality is not necessary wait to childless people to grow old with regret, I think the time will come when a culture will be formed were childless people are going to be look down and even discriminated against it, in housing, jobs and so on. Imagine parents receiving larger job bonuses and better vacations for less work than childless people, just for having children.
The talk is growing to put taxes in childless people globally.
The problem is that if the situation continues to get "worst" globally unitive taxes against the childless are going to be everywhere in the industrial world, governments in industrial countries are going to put punitive taxes to single people who decide to be childless to pay for other people children welfare. There will no be place to hide because this is a global industrial world "problem" so the only way to go for people who decide to be childless will be Africa or others poor countries.
Can't find an earlier post about incentives for settling down and having kids. I think that's a cool idea though. More paid vacation days for married workers, even more days if they have kids. I think a lot of the grievances with starting a family comes from the fact that people simply don't get to see their kids as often as they like due to work. Why have kids if you're not even gonna see them grow up?
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
That would be good if it could self-correct and an anti-childless culture could be formed in China but at the end of the day, it will come when these people reach their older years when they're no longer excited about going to crazy places and doing crazy things, but when they just want to sit there and be proud of the pictures on the wall but they will have none to look at with any meaning.
Global talk? I've never heard of such an initiative. Where did you get this?
It doesn't matter what other countries do; there is no way in hell that every developed country will implement taxes to discriminate against the childless leaving them nowhere to run. There will be a haven and they will find it. Furthermore, what is the point of punitive taxes if 1. they cannot correct the behavior because no tax can be a greater burden than caring for kids and 2. it is not necessarily desirable for selfish people who don't want kids to have them and bring them up with their values just for the purpose of evading taxes?
These people played their part helping China's rise. They were taught and trained to work hard and they grew up under the One Child Policy. Their submersion into their careers at the expense of family values drove China's power and gave speed to China's challenge to the US and the West. They don't deserve to be attacked like they're evil. But the ultimate punishment they must face, of dying in a cold empty room with no genetic legacy to warm their last breaths, is self-inflicted and inescapable.
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I have seeing quotes from German politicians,Italy,Spain, Koreans, UK, Japanese and so on, even in the US. If fertility rates keep dropping the talk for taxes to pay for the welfare of other people children is only going to grow louder. Makes sense, because if countries are going to give people "incentives" to have children that money has to come from somewhere, basically the same as taxing young people for the welfare of old retire people.
Let see when the global hysteria for children really kicks in.
Of course, poor countries, were fertility rates are higher and there is less panic.
Yeah of course, I agree, but we don't make the rules.
Even without punitive measures there could be "discrimination" against childless people, for example a woman receiving more bonuses, more paid free time and more paid vacations for doing less work than a childless woman just for having children. A good initiative to encourage people to have more children that without any bad intend ends discriminating against people who don't want children.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Fringe politicians throwing up ideas that have nowhere near the traction needed to be taken seriously happen all the time in these countries. It's as far from reality as we are from having an artificial womb simply by having scientists talk about it. Except the latter is something that will inevitably be possible from scientific advances while the former may never see the erosion of basic human dignity and choice required for it to happen.
Yes, but it doesn't feel unfair to be taxed when you are young for when you are old. It feels unfair to be taxed for your childlessness for other people's children. With the government's ability to print money, they don't need to collect from A to give to B. They can simply print more for B and thus dilute the purchasing power of A through greater money supply and inflation. It's the same thing but it feels much less unfair.
That's a multi-decade wait to finish this conversation. Ideally, we'd act and have the problem solved in China long before it became a hysteria.
No, I mean there are so many developed countries in the world; you don't think there will be countries that hold out due to the obvious ethical boundaries such a tax would encroach on? What if doing this gave such countries an influx of wealthy and highly educated single and childless immigrants?
People are a part of society so when society develops a disdain for such people, it's easier for them to come around and for those with time to possibly change. But when this discrimination comes from the government, the feeling is just oppression.
look forward to it because here's the statistics as of 2019:
35% of all international students in the US are from China.
Assuming that portion holds for PhDs, there are ~50k Chinese STEM PhDs graduating in China in 2019, and 3700 Chinese STEM PhDs graduating in the US that stay in the US. An order of magnitude difference from this rough estimate. And even assuming 100% of Chinese STEM PhDs stay in the US, then that's still only ~5k. Even if every single international STEM PhD was Chinese, that's still only 10k.
I will be interested to see how you can increase this number by 5x at minimum and an order of magnitude at maximum.