China demographics thread.

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
The term artificial womb for them is wrong. It is a marketing gimmick.

Think of them more as an advanced form of neonatal incubators. They provide incredible support to babies who are born extremely prematurely, which is say 24 weeks (around 6 months). At the max these devices (still far from being commercialized) will provide mothers with around 2 months of support, however that is far from being a solution to the extreme demographic crisis that will emerge.
Like I said, we are very far from having a system that can replace a woman but we are correctly investing in that direction. This is a humble and reachable step in that direction.
Agreed, education and automation is indeed the future. However, that is the case everywhere, from now 20 pig farmers, you perhaps need 4 people to manage the facility, however, the other 16 people will be needed to design new robotics, perhaps design space stations, general virtual worlds etc. Meaning new industries will be created, and that is the same for all countries. I get it that not all countries are equally good at using talent, but I would argue the natural trend is towards convergence, which is already happening.
Yes, and having those other people free to innovate means that the system won't collapse without them but rather benefits in addition with them. Quality of everything else equal, of course more people is better, and that's an endless endeavor, but this demonstrates that as China's technology and automation increases by leaps and bounds, a slight population reduction will not cause any contraction or weakness, especially if the middle class and educated population is not reduced at all but actually increasing.
It is both, education and population. Also, don't forget population also provides you with a market, which is perhaps the most important resource for a country.
Yes, but once again, your argument is in the direction that more is always better, which is true, but it's not relevent to reality; it's just a wish. The situation we face now is that China can continue to grow and continue to overtake the US even with a slight overall population decline.
Also, I would say that there are also jobs where education (at least as defined conventionally) is not as useful. Progress in AI and Robotics is surprisingly leading to pressure on skilled jobs, not on unskilled, manual jobs.
Example required; don't get your point.

On another note, I noticed this isn't the first time you mentioned Israel's birth rate. 2 points; 1 Israel gets along by bowing to the US and the West; it is sheltered by their umbrella. Without it, it would be in eternal war and life would likely be so hard, people couldn't have so many kids. China's competition with the US is one that Israel has no comparison to; if Israel was in a struggle to catch up to a country that is, or was, superior in technology, economy and military, their people would likely need to work in overdrive to survive (and overtake, as China has in many areas) and have less time for kids 2. Israel is a fundamentally different country than China in that it is deeply religious and has many many of the societal and life inefficiencies that come with such. But one thing is that this religion tells them that it is their duty to increase the number of Jews in the world. China's system is just incompatible with this approach.
 

asiandemographer

New Member
Registered Member
Yes, and having those other people free to innovate means that the system won't collapse without them but rather benefits in addition with them. Quality of everything else equal, of course more people is better, and that's an endless endeavor, but this demonstrates that as China's technology and automation increases by leaps and bounds, a slight population reduction will not cause any contraction or weakness, especially if the middle class and educated population is not reduced at all but actually increasing.

I think we largely agree on everything (demographics related) except on these two things:

  1. Your and mine perception of the importance of quality and educated population is different. So for example, right now China has 1.4 billion people. The combined west (US + 5 eyes + Europe + Japan/SoKo) has around 1.2 billion people. India has 1.4 billion people. Education and Quality will matter, however raw numbers can't be wished away.
  2. We disagree about the rate (or atleast the perception of it) of population decline. Yes Chinese population has just peaked and is declining marginally. It would not be an area to worry (and I would agree with you on that) if the demographic pyramid was stable. But the demographic pyramid is totally inverted. With the number of children that are born getting reduced by 2/3rds, over the course of time, this steep decline is bound to reflect in population numbers as well, with a significant lag.

Example required; don't get your point.

On another note, I noticed this isn't the first time you mentioned Israel's birth rate. 2 points; 1 Israel gets along by bowing to the US and the West; it is sheltered by their umbrella. Without it, it would be in eternal war and life would likely be so hard, people couldn't have so many kids. China's competition with the US is one that Israel has no comparison to; if Israel was in a struggle to catch up to a country that is, or was, superior in technology, economy and military, their people would likely need to work in overdrive to survive (and overtake, as China has in many areas) and have less time for kids 2. Israel is a fundamentally different country than China in that it is deeply religious and has many many of the societal and life inefficiencies that come with such. But one thing is that this religion tells them that it is their duty to increase the number of Jews in the world. China's system is just incompatible with this approach.

What I meant is that current advances in automation are actually threatening jobs like coding, creative design, painting etc more than it has been threatening manual labor jobs. It seems that it is very hard to teach and impart robots with mechanical dexterity, balance, and nimbleness required for manual labor. However, it has been easier to generate models that can generate paintings, music, art, code etc. So the higher skilled jobs are in fact getting threatened by disruption more at this point. An irony of AI!

I agree that Israel is not China. China will need to find its own way, however what I meant is that Israel has demonstrated a model, using a mix of economic incentives and most importantly, cultural responsibility. I am slightly in deviance with your point regarding hard work and religion. While religious jews definitely have a very high TFR, even the secular wing, that is extremely entrepreneurial, hard working and technologically savvy has a net TFR way above replacement of 2.1.

In my view a combination of these factors determine TFR:
  1. Cultural
  2. Religious
  3. Cost of raising a child
  4. Cost of not raising a child
  5. Work Life Balance
 

asiandemographer

New Member
Registered Member
Some approaches that might work include:

  1. Heavy taxation of childless with cross-subsidy for people with children. (Maybe some exceptions can be made to highly skilled/talented people or else they will just leave country)
  2. Change in cultural norms
    1. Promotion of children etc.
    2. Promotion of motherhood and fatherhood as a way to get purpose in life (purposeless ness is the most common modern ailment)
    3. Disassociate marriage with maternity, let people have kids out of wedlock.
    4. Allow surrogacy for people who can afford it.
  3. Measures to reduce child bearing costs:
    1. Banning of costly activities (that don't add much value). One example already is restriction on private tutoring
    2. Cultural change for responsibility of children: Parents shouldn't be expected to pay for their kids houses, marriages etc. Ban it outright.
    3. Let the property rates fall by a LOT. Property soon becomes the overwhelmingly large cost, whether be it purchase or rent. In Asia it is even more skewed.
  4. Removal of impediments on career for parents:
    1. Zero discrimination based on whether the woman wants to have a baby or not.
    2. Paid maternal/paternal leave. Strong rules against any discrimination or retaliation.
    3. Work-life balance so that parents have time.
  5. Communist Party Specific things - CPC, Government, SOEs, Military
    1. All people need to have 3 children to have any hope of career advancement
  6. Science:
    1. The most important single thing science can contribute is the ability to have twins/triplets at will. Raising twins is a lot less taxing than raising two kids who are born say 4 years apart.


Like I said, we are very far from having a system that can replace a woman but we are correctly investing in that direction. This is a humble and reachable step in that direction.

I am not a fan of biotech solutions to demographics, however few big things that can work are:
  1. Surrogacy, both international and domestic
  2. Twins/Triplets. As said previously my understanding speaking with folks is that it is much easier to raise twins rather than two kids from different pregnancies a few years apart.
 

sanctionsevader

New Member
Registered Member
I agree that Israel is not China. China will need to find its own way, however what I meant is that Israel has demonstrated a model, using a mix of economic incentives and most importantly, cultural responsibility. I am slightly in deviance with your point regarding hard work and religion. While religious jews definitely have a very high TFR, even the secular wing, that is extremely entrepreneurial, hard working and technologically savvy has a net TFR way above replacement of 2.1.

Your information on Secular Jew TFR in Israel is outdated. Around 2 now, trending downwards. And they keep importing more ex-soviet people, not well known for having high TFR themselves... Israel demographics are more or less fine (ignoring the uh... Haredi issue) but fertiliy rate will continue to trend downwards. Especially since economic benefits take a backseat to wartime realities.

The key issue that Israel did not solve was that women are having children later in life. Under those circumstances the likelihood of 3 kids is gonna plummet unless economic and social benefits are kept very high (again, the war will disrupt this for the forseeable future). Unless modern economies make it both desirable and economically feasible for young women (early 20s) to have 1-2 kids before they turn 30, we won't see 3+ TFR anywhere in the developed world (possible exception for fanatically misogynistic societies which might maintain 3+ by basically enforcing 'domestication' on women).
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I think we largely agree on everything (demographics related) except on these two things:

  1. Your and mine perception of the importance of quality and educated population is different. So for example, right now China has 1.4 billion people. The combined west (US + 5 eyes + Europe + Japan/SoKo) has around 1.2 billion people. India has 1.4 billion people. Education and Quality will matter, however raw numbers can't be wished away.
Just adding numbers doesn't mean something can or can't be washed away. First of all, the US has absolute domination over India in every aspect despite having a quarter of the population. That in itself shows that raw population is not the key to success. Secondly, those other countries being added to the US side, actually will sway depending on the power balance. When China is definitively more powerful than the US and it is known that siding with China will get you reward and siding with the US will get you punishment, those numbers, and likely more, to include China's allies like Russia, will be added to China's side instead.
  1. We disagree about the rate (or atleast the perception of it) of population decline. Yes Chinese population has just peaked and is declining marginally. It would not be an area to worry (and I would agree with you on that) if the demographic pyramid was stable. But the demographic pyramid is totally inverted. With the number of children that are born getting reduced by 2/3rds, over the course of time, this steep decline is bound to reflect in population numbers as well, with a significant lag.
"Reflect with a significant lag" means to 1. decline slowly with warning and 2. allow a large margin for the development of tools and machines to take over as much as possible. A China with 2/3rds the population is still almost a billion people. Look at what the US can do with 330 million. And those 330 million are scholastically much lazier and stupider than Chinese kids. We need to shoot for person-to-person parity and overmatch of power, to be stronger than 3 or more Americas through technology, NOT to fear being 2/3rds as strong as the old China with 1.4 billion people.
What I meant is that current advances in automation are actually threatening jobs like coding, creative design, painting etc more than it has been threatening manual labor jobs. It seems that it is very hard to teach and impart robots with mechanical dexterity, balance, and nimbleness required for manual labor. However, it has been easier to generate models that can generate paintings, music, art, code etc. So the higher skilled jobs are in fact getting threatened by disruption more at this point. An irony of AI!
Saying that technology threatens jobs is looking it it from a helpless person's view; this person has no desire to improve himself and thinks that the economy and society was made to provide him a living. He is not what I would call and intelligent, educated and socially-valuable person. An intelligent, educated and socially-valuable person instead looks at the oppertunity of automation and asks, "What can I move upwards to now that I am freed up from my previous labor?" These people are the key to a high tech high income advanced society.

This 'threatening of jobs" firstly shows that technology is very much capable of countering population decline. If we're worried about jobless people, then we're not worried that our population is too low. They can disappear and the machines would hold down the fort.

But on top of that, it goes back to the core people who want to learn and improve so that they keep ahead of automation and instead of being driven jobless by it, master it to produce more with less. These people will thrive and grow, and it is with this harmony of high quality educated people and increasingly sophisticated technology that smaller societies can absolutely dominate much larger societies while increasing their own standard of living.

So the conclusion is what I said before; it's not the size of the raw population but the size of the educated contributing population.
I agree that Israel is not China. China will need to find its own way, however what I meant is that Israel has demonstrated a model, using a mix of economic incentives and most importantly, cultural responsibility. I am slightly in deviance with your point regarding hard work and religion. While religious jews definitely have a very high TFR, even the secular wing, that is extremely entrepreneurial, hard working and technologically savvy has a net TFR way above replacement of 2.1.

In my view a combination of these factors determine TFR:
  1. Cultural
  2. Religious
  3. Cost of raising a child
  4. Cost of not raising a child
  5. Work Life Balance
So actually, one of the critical problems of Israeli high TRF is that it's not high were it needs to be. From what I understand, the Israelis who are educated, hardworking, and invested in technological advancement are actually not having that many kids while the Israelis whom are dedicated to religion are having kids by the droves, and training those kids to, just like them, invest only in bible studies. Those people have a religion and culture where the women take care of household chores and it's regarded as a man's job to research deeper and deeper into the words of their bibles. Of course, this produces a much much easier lifestyle where there's no performance expectation at "work" and their kids are guaranteed to be bankrolled by tax money so these people love having kids while the Isrealis who are on the clock to produce useful technology do not have the same fertility-conducive lifestyle. In other words, this is precisely the religious inefficiency that I mentioned before. They are breeding more and more people who are absolutely useless. They are actually more than useless as they are given government money every year to to produce absolutely nothing. This table shows that Orthodox Jews have a much much higher TRF than non-orthodox in the US. I did not spend more time looking for the specific data in Israel but I don't see why it should be much different and I saw a documentary on Israel that stated they had this issue.
PF_05.11.21_jewish.americans-10-0.png

Some approaches that might work include:

  1. Heavy taxation of childless with cross-subsidy for people with children. (Maybe some exceptions can be made to highly skilled/talented people or else they will just leave country)
Not a big fan of heavy taxation. Childless people are not useless; they are often super high achievers and this might end up driving them out of the country.
  1. Change in cultural norms
    1. Promotion of children etc.
    2. Promotion of motherhood and fatherhood as a way to get purpose in life (purposeless ness is the most common modern ailment)
    3. Disassociate marriage with maternity, let people have kids out of wedlock.
    4. Allow surrogacy for people who can afford it.
  2. Measures to reduce child bearing costs:
    1. Banning of costly activities (that don't add much value). One example already is restriction on private tutoring
    2. Cultural change for responsibility of children: Parents shouldn't be expected to pay for their kids houses, marriages etc. Ban it outright.
    3. Let the property rates fall by a LOT. Property soon becomes the overwhelmingly large cost, whether be it purchase or rent. In Asia it is even more skewed.
    4. Removal of impediments on career for parents:
      1. Zero discrimination based on whether the woman wants to have a baby or not.
      2. Paid maternal/paternal leave. Strong rules against any discrimination or retaliation.
      3. Work-life balance so that parents have time.
Absolutely 100%
  1. Communist Party Specific things - CPC, Government, SOEs, Military
    1. All people need to have 3 children to have any hope of career advancement
I dunno... It seems too intrusive and many people simply can't have 3 kids even though they are very talented workers and capable managers. A lot of women who don't start in their early years would be lucky to have 1 or 2 kids, even when trying their best to conceive and even with IVF+surrogacy help. So it can be very discriminatory against a lot of very talented people who have invested their early lives and most productive learning years into becoming very very capable and useful people.
  • Science:
    1. The most important single thing science can contribute is the ability to have twins/triplets at will. Raising twins is a lot less taxing than raising two kids who are born say 4 years apart.
That's... a cool angle. I want 4 kids but I dunno if I want 4 of the same kid... Still, would be great to have the technology.
    1. I am not a fan of biotech solutions to demographics, however few big things that can work are:
    2. Surrogacy, both international and domestic
    3. Twins/Triplets. As said previously my understanding speaking with folks is that it is much easier to raise twins rather than two kids from different pregnancies a few years apart.
No problem. Surrogacy is particularly important and most importantly, already very doable right now.
 
Last edited:

asiandemographer

New Member
Registered Member
Just adding numbers doesn't mean something can or can't be washed away. First of all, the US has absolute domination over India in every aspect despite having a quarter of the population. That in itself shows that raw population is not the key to success. Secondly, those other countries being added to the US side, actually will sway depending on the power balance. When China is definitively more powerful than the US and it is known that siding with China will get you reward and siding with the US will get you punishment, those numbers, and likely more, to include China's allies like Russia, will be added to China's side instead.

Just military or economic power doesn't lead to alliances. What also matters is culture, values, and interests.

A very interesting case is Australia. Australian economy is completely complementary to China's. In fact Australia gained immensely in economic sense from China's economic miracle. Australia is far from China, has no territorial disputes, no bad history, nothing.

However, despite that Australian politics is seriously anti-China, and they were among the first ones to ban Huawei, even before the UK.

That is because Australia considers it part of the broader West in general, and Anglophone world in particular. They are culturally the same, have benefited historically from American power, etc. etc. You can't just force all of that away.

When the Toyotomi Hideyoshi asked Joseon Korea to submit and clear their way for an invasion of Ming, not only did Joseon refuse, they were aghast at Japanese temerity to even ask that. Joseon Korea had incredibly close relations with Ming, looked up to Ming culturally, politically, economically etc.

I don't mean to say that hard power doesn't play in here, however people, the communities they form, and the nations that they belong to, are more than just mere calculations of who is above or below. They are made of emotions.

Apart from that you are severely underestimating India in my opinion. It might not be the next China, but it is already the 3rd largest economy in Asia, soon will be in the world. Almost all major American/Western tech companies have a huge number of Indians, and this skill pollinates the Indian tech sector as well.

"Reflect with a significant lag" means to 1. decline slowly with warning and 2. allow a large margin for the development of tools and machines to take over as much as possible. A China with 2/3rds the population is still almost a billion people. Look at what the US can do with 330 million. And those 330 million are scholastically much lazier and stupider than Chinese kids. We need to shoot for person-to-person parity and overmatch of power, to be stronger than 3 or more Americas through technology, NOT to fear being 2/3rds as strong as the old China with 1.4 billion people.

Chinese birth rates have declined by almost 2/3rd, so the children born today are just 1/3rd of the peak. Hence, the population will gradually follow the same trend. Beyond that, while yes US might have just 330 million people, it is the magnet of world's top talent. That also includes Chinese talent. When I read research papers from top US labs, at least 20-25% of the names are clearly Mainland Chinese. There are insane number of very talented Eastern Europeans (Eastern Europeans are quite talented programmers).

I was just perusing Nature (main journal). In some editions, there are 4-5 articles that have the first (and majority share) of authors who are clearly mainland chinese (can get to know using pinyin names), but all of their affiliations are in the US.

In Nature and Science, there is more contribution of Mainland Chinese who are working in US, than there is from China.

(Of course this doesn't at all mean to negate the HUGE and RAPID progress China and Chinese science has achieved)

Saying that technology threatens jobs is looking it it from a helpless person's view; this person has no desire to improve himself and thinks that the economy and society was made to provide him a living. He is not what I would call and intelligent, educated and socially-valuable person. An intelligent, educated and socially-valuable person instead looks at the oppertunity of automation and asks, "What can I move upwards to now that I am freed up from my previous labor?" These people are the key to a high tech high income advanced society.

This 'threatening of jobs" firstly shows that technology is very much capable of countering population decline. If we're worried about jobless people, then we're not worried that our population is too low. They can disappear and the machines would hold down the fort.

But on top of that, it goes back to the core people who want to learn and improve so that they keep ahead of automation and instead of being driven jobless by it, master it to produce more with less. These people will thrive and grow, and it is with this harmony of high quality educated people and increasingly sophisticated technology that smaller societies can absolutely dominate much larger societies while increasing their own standard of living.

So the conclusion is what I said before; it's not the size of the raw population but the size of the educated contributing population.

You are misunderstanding my point. What I meant was that the menial work isn't getting automated away. You still need people to harvest crops and in variety of other menial or vocational labor type roles. This is the reason why a lot of countries import labor from abroad. Korea is expanding for example it's seasonal worker visa.

Not a big fan of heavy taxation. Childless people are not useless; they are often super high achievers and this might end up driving them out of the country.

Positive Incentives have not worked, some negative incentives need to be there. And yes, these have to be callibrated based on a person's contribution. So people with PhDs in important STEM fields for example, can have no or lower childless tax.

I dunno... It seems too intrusive and many people simply can't have 3 kids even though they are very talented workers and capable managers. A lot of women who don't start in their early years would be lucky to have 1 or 2 kids, even when trying their best to conceive and even with IVF+surrogacy help. So it can be very discriminatory against a lot of very talented people who have invested their early lives and most productive learning years into becoming very very capable and useful people.

You can introduce it as scaled, so obviously people already in their 30s, might just be expected to have 2 kids, while those below 25 might be expected to have more kids.

That's... a cool angle. I want 4 kids but I dunno if I want 4 of the same kid... Still, would be great to have the technology.

Twins need not be identical. Twins can be fraternal, with separate genes.

o actually, one of the critical problems of Israeli high TRF is that it's not high were it needs to be. From what I understand, the Israelis who are educated, hardworking, and invested in technological advancement are actually not having that many kids while the Israelis whom are dedicated to religion are having kids by the droves, and training those kids to, just like them, invest only in bible studies. Those people have a religion and culture where the women take care of household chores and it's regarded as a man's job to research deeper and deeper into the words of their bibles. Of course, this produces a much much easier lifestyle where there's no performance expectation at "work" and their kids are guaranteed to be bankrolled by tax money so these people love having kids while the Isrealis who are on the clock to produce useful technology do not have the same fertility-conducive lifestyle. In other words, this is precisely the religious inefficiency that I mentioned before. They are breeding more and more people who are absolutely useless. They are actually more than useless as they are given government money every year to to produce absolutely nothing. This table shows that Orthodox Jews have a much much higher TRF than non-orthodox in the US. I did not spend more time looking for the specific data in Israel but I don't see why it should be much different and I saw a documentary on Israel that stated they had this issue.
PF_05.11.21_jewish.americans-10-0.png

Well China will have to find a way.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just military or economic power doesn't lead to alliances. What also matters is culture, values, and interests.

A very interesting case is Australia. Australian economy is completely complementary to China's. In fact Australia gained immensely in economic sense from China's economic miracle. Australia is far from China, has no territorial disputes, no bad history, nothing.

However, despite that Australian politics is seriously anti-China, and they were among the first ones to ban Huawei, even before the UK.

That is because Australia considers it part of the broader West in general, and Anglophone world in particular. They are culturally the same, have benefited historically from American power, etc. etc. You can't just force all of that away.

When the Toyotomi Hideyoshi asked Joseon Korea to submit and clear their way for an invasion of Ming, not only did Joseon refuse, they were aghast at Japanese temerity to even ask that. Joseon Korea had incredibly close relations with Ming, looked up to Ming culturally, politically, economically etc.

I don't mean to say that hard power doesn't play in here, however people, the communities they form, and the nations that they belong to, are more than just mere calculations of who is above or below. They are made of emotions.

Apart from that you are severely underestimating India in my opinion. It might not be the next China, but it is already the 3rd largest economy in Asia, soon will be in the world. Almost all major American/Western tech companies have a huge number of Indians, and this skill pollinates the Indian tech sector as well.



Chinese birth rates have declined by almost 2/3rd, so the children born today are just 1/3rd of the peak. Hence, the population will gradually follow the same trend. Beyond that, while yes US might have just 330 million people, it is the magnet of world's top talent. That also includes Chinese talent. When I read research papers from top US labs, at least 20-25% of the names are clearly Mainland Chinese. There are insane number of very talented Eastern Europeans (Eastern Europeans are quite talented programmers).

I was just perusing Nature (main journal). In some editions, there are 4-5 articles that have the first (and majority share) of authors who are clearly mainland chinese (can get to know using pinyin names), but all of their affiliations are in the US.

In Nature and Science, there is more contribution of Mainland Chinese who are working in US, than there is from China.

(Of course this doesn't at all mean to negate the HUGE and RAPID progress China and Chinese science has achieved)

However, despite that Australian politics is seriously anti-China, and they were among the first ones to ban Huawei, even before the UK.

That is because Australia considers it part of the broader West in general, and Anglophone world in particular. They are culturally the same, have benefited historically from American power, etc. etc. You can't just force all of that away.
What a nice way to say they're racists.

I was just perusing Nature (main journal). In some editions, there are 4-5 articles that have the first (and majority share) of authors who are clearly mainland chinese (can get to know using pinyin names), but all of their affiliations are in the US.

In Nature and Science, there is more contribution of Mainland Chinese who are working in US, than there is from China.
Can you quantify that claim?

China has a net brain gain from published scientists.

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image10.png


Apart from that you are severely underestimating India in my opinion. It might not be the next China, but it is already the 3rd largest economy in Asia, soon will be in the world. Almost all major American/Western tech companies have a huge number of Indians, and this skill pollinates the Indian tech sector as well.

India's economy is stagnant in complexity. It is no higher ranked on economic complexity (42) than it was in 2000 (43). That means there is little cross pollination happening.

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Just military or economic power doesn't lead to alliances. What also matters is culture, values, and interests.
No, this is wrong. Military and economic power will make others align interests with you, embrace your culture, adopt your values and act as your allies, because the most important thing is, nobody wants to be on the losing side. The only marked deviation from this is extreme religious conflict.
A very interesting case is Australia. Australian economy is completely complementary to China's. In fact Australia gained immensely in economic sense from China's economic miracle. Australia is far from China, has no territorial disputes, no bad history, nothing.

However, despite that Australian politics is seriously anti-China, and they were among the first ones to ban Huawei, even before the UK.

That is because Australia considers it part of the broader West in general, and Anglophone world in particular. They are culturally the same, have benefited historically from American power, etc. etc. You can't just force all of that away.
The US has military dominance and life trumps money. Right now the US can inflict much more pain on Australia than China can mitigate through reward or compete with in punishment. If the Chinese military was at a point where the US military could not operate with credibility ad relevence in the area, Aussies would take the first off-ramp China offered. Because the other choice would be to get turned into a big North Korea and get bullied by a Chinese-leaning Indonesia which would rapidly eclipse them in economics, technology and military under Chinese guidance.
When the Toyotomi Hideyoshi asked Joseon Korea to submit and clear their way for an invasion of Ming, not only did Joseon refuse, they were aghast at Japanese temerity to even ask that. Joseon Korea had incredibly close relations with Ming, looked up to Ming culturally, politically, economically etc.
They calculated that little Japan would not win. If they thought that Japan would conquer Ming and Korea would get turned into a slave colony for refusing to help Japan, they would have complied.
I don't mean to say that hard power doesn't play in here, however people, the communities they form, and the nations that they belong to, are more than just mere calculations of who is above or below. They are made of emotions.
Emotions take a backseat to logic when a country is given a choice between prosperity and destitution. How do you think Japan felt after WWII? Kiss the feet of the country that just nuked you twice? They did it, because by doing it, they became moden Japan. By following their emotions, they would have become big Haiti. And in order to cope with what they had done, cozy up to the power that killed so many of their countrymen, even civilians, Japan began to fool themselves into thinking that they had the same democratic values and interests as the Americans and they finally became America's willing accomplice.
Apart from that you are severely underestimating India in my opinion. It might not be the next China, but it is already the 3rd largest economy in Asia, soon will be in the world. Almost all major American/Western tech companies have a huge number of Indians, and this skill pollinates the Indian tech sector as well.
India is always a country with high potential on paper but absolutely no ability to put that potential into use. At the end of WWII, India was in a stronger position than China. Today, it is far behind. That's because Indian culture is one that whitewashes failures into successes, thus removing all impetus to improve and the country is hobbled by religious inefficiency. All the successful Indians leave India and never want to go back.

India is the country that accidentally flips warships on launch, submerges submarines without closing the hatch, gets 7 friendly kills and 0 intentional kills in operations against Pakistan, has soldiers committing suicide in frozen rivers rather than fight the Chinese on the shores, loots iPhone factories when Apple tries setting up in India, fires at Saturn thinking it's a Chinese drone, etc.... etc... Deeply ingrained culture of incompetence and rewarding incompetence to cover it up.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Chinese birth rates have declined by almost 2/3rd, so the children born today are just 1/3rd of the peak. Hence, the population will gradually follow the same trend.
The 1963 peak? 7.5 births per woman? Senegal level numbers. Were those good times? Was China a superpower then? Or is China much stronger now? Some people have an infatuation as if the less people the less power the country has, but they ignore the data that the country is rising and the contributing middle class is rising. It's only in their minds do population and birth rate correlate positively with national strength.
Beyond that, while yes US might have just 330 million people, it is the magnet of world's top talent. That also includes Chinese talent. When I read research papers from top US labs, at least 20-25% of the names are clearly Mainland Chinese. There are insane number of very talented Eastern Europeans (Eastern Europeans are quite talented programmers).
And yet, 1. China published more total and more top-ranked papers than the US. 2. America's strategy of using foreigners is badly compromised due to lack of loyalty. Many are here to study and go home. Some leave whenever a higher offer is made. Others stay and don't mind making money on side advising foreign rivals. When a foreign scientist sees America come into conflict with his home country, what goes through his mind? America's tech army is not made of loyal American soldiers but of mercenaries for sale to the highest bidder.
I was just perusing Nature (main journal). In some editions, there are 4-5 articles that have the first (and majority share) of authors who are clearly mainland chinese (can get to know using pinyin names), but all of their affiliations are in the US.

In Nature and Science, there is more contribution of Mainland Chinese who are working in US, than there is from China.

(Of course this doesn't at all mean to negate the HUGE and RAPID progress China and Chinese science has achieved)
Yes, it shows that much of America's power base is flimsy. I don't know how you think, but if I was in a competition against China and half my engineering team whom I rely on are Chinese, I'd be very very nervous, not proud or happy.
You are misunderstanding my point. What I meant was that the menial work isn't getting automated away. You still need people to harvest crops and in variety of other menial or vocational labor type roles. This is the reason why a lot of countries import labor from abroad. Korea is expanding for example it's seasonal worker visa.
But it is getting automated away. Some have already been done, others there is progress towards it. Right now, the tractors that harvest crops allow a few people to do the work of an army that was required before. Other chores that are more intricate, such as selecting which fruits to pick and sort, are still being done manually but just like how robots can now do waitering work and food delivery, technology is moving in a way that these jobs can be taken over too.
Positive Incentives have not worked, some negative incentives need to be there.
Negative incentives trigger rebellious thought. By rewarding those who have many kids and giving nothing to those who have none, that is already negative enough. To put negative stigma on childlessness is cruel if for no other reason than that some people want to but cannot have kids.
And yes, these have to be callibrated based on a person's contribution. So people with PhDs in important STEM fields for example, can have no or lower childless tax.
The feeling of being discriminated against is arguably worse and more insulting than the actual taxes that would have been paid.

I think ultimately, the biggest negative reinforcement that people will have against being childless is seeing droves of childless people grow older, developing unrequited affections for relatives' or friends' children due to the void in their lives, only to ultimately die alone, unsupported and pitifully reflecting on their passing lives with regret and sorrow. Before people see this, they just think it's the government trying to force them to do things they don't want to do.
You can introduce it as scaled, so obviously people already in their 30s, might just be expected to have 2 kids, while those below 25 might be expected to have more kids.
Or we can never start that at all. Having people register their dates of marriage to start the countdown clock for how many kids they need to have to avoid taxation is the perfect way to drop the marriage rate and enter into a society of lovers just living together without official paperwork to avoid such a stress.
Twins need not be identical. Twins can be fraternal, with separate genes.
Good... I like...
Well China will have to find a way.
The way is gonna be to:

1. surpass the US and enter a phase of maintenance instead of fervent improvement, thus reducing the workload needed

2. enhance automation so that more is produced per capita to improve quality of life

3. engage in more city building so that, with the already coming population drop, there is much more space resource with cheaper larger housing appropriate for bigger families (TRF is much lower in densely crowded cities than suburban areas in the US)

4. use media to depict the large Chinese family as a sign of wealth. The image of the fashionable city-slicker is some young well-groomed CEO with no kids and working 80 hour weeks and the image of a country peasant is one who has several kids and spends time taking care of them. That needs to change and Chinese media should depict the warmth and genetic riches of a big family while depicting those who have invested all of their life energy into amassing wealth and power as people who will come up empty in the long run because we all die and money is never a legacy while the children who live on will be the only thing that's worth it.

We may not be ready for 4 because we are on the cusp of overtaking the US so those working in overdrive should not be thrown under the bus and suddenly have their work distracted by they questioning their sometimes already too late life choices. And China's population is still absolutely huge so we can afford to sprint some more against the US before making efforts to simmer down towards a more relaxed higher TRF nation.
 
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