China demographics thread.

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
There are no countries that are high tech, high income, high population density, high birthrate. It doesn't add up.
Israel?

You're repeating the same thing you said before. Even if there weren't any today, they certainly were in the past.
Little to do with overpopulation??? Housing is a market; it's high because too many people need to buy apartments. And just building more isn't going to work because traffic is unbearable. Try commuting in Beijing and then say they need more people, more places to become like this.

Yes, it doesn't mean to emulate poor practice; you can always find people doing worse than you for basically no reason.

China's youth unemployment already shows more workers than spots. More people will not make traffic better. More people will not make housing more affordable. More people will not make the city more pleasant to live in and that will cause brain drain.

I was hoping someone would bring up Japan. Japan was doing well but then... as Henry Kissenger said, to be America's enemy is dangerous but to be its friend is fatal. Japan never recovered from what America did to it, and also, Japan is crowded as hell; how is that an example you want to bring up? Life stress is through the roof in Japan because too many people, too little food and housing. Japan would be much more confortable with far less people.
Not all the population growth needs to go to Beijing. Tier 2 cities can grow, new cities can be founded. The whole of west China is relatively undeveloped. Taiwan's population density is 4x that of mainland and all of your arguments could be transplanted to them.

What American actions are causing Japanese to kill themselves? Nagasaki? Stopping them from eating so many whales?

No, it's the unsustainable burden of millions of economically inactive old people being supported by a diminishing workforce.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Israel?

You're repeating the same thing you said before. Even if there weren't any today, they certainly were in the past.

Not all the population growth needs to go to Beijing. Tier 2 cities can grow, new cities can be founded. The whole of west China is relatively undeveloped. Taiwan's population density is 4x that of mainland and all of your arguments could be transplanted to them.

What American actions are causing Japanese to kill themselves? Nagasaki? Stopping them from eating so many whales?

No, it's the unsustainable burden of millions of economically inactive old people being supported by a diminishing workforce.

Israel’s birthdate is buoyed by fundamentalist Jewish faction though. They don’t really contribute to society and won’t even serve in the military.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
K. Not familiar with their situation, but that's because they're niche and not an overall powerhouse. But rather than spend time on them, I'll go with what Seige said.
You're repeating the same thing you said before. Even if there weren't any today, they certainly were in the past. Not all the population growth needs to go to Beijing. Tier 2 cities can grow, new cities can be founded. The whole of west China is relatively undeveloped. Taiwan's population density is 4x that of mainland and all of your arguments could be transplanted to them.
It's being repeated because it still stands and you're not countering it. You're putting your fiction against fact. What you propose here could work if you kept up the infrastructure building (not a problem for China) but then you need food production as well as fishing to grow. That does increase but it is constrained by arable land and oceanic resources. China's not even fully food self-sufficient with the current population. The waters near China are already overfished. And the point is not to have enough food to survive if there was a war; in order to really increase people's standard of living to where they want to have kids (knowing that will make their lives much more difficult), it has to be good, highly desireable food. We're talking highly affordable fresh high quality seafood, beef, lamb, you can't just make some monster GMO grains and tell people they can eat all the bread/noodles they want because that won't really improve their quality of life.

And then, "could work" is not the same as "will work" because people are not machines; you cannot tell overly stressed tired-to-death people that they must have kids and more kids because you think it would counter-intuitively ameliorate a problem. They will not do it but they will emigrate. If you want people to have kids, you must bring down their life stress and increase their standard of living first. If that doesn't come down, people reproduce less, the population decreases, then the natural resources per capita rise and they achieve a more comfortable population equilibrium that way. This is how nature/the world works. That's how China is working now. What you imagine, won't work, firstly because you're not playing some online civilization game where people reproduce and populate where you want at the click of a mouse.

If we were to try what you are advocating, China would need to build more "ghost cities," (easiest part, no problem) drastically increase food availability, making it very cheap to get a lot of (good) food (extremely challenging), and make laws limiting work hours to 40 or so a week with mandated wages to be at a certain level. The dangers are enumerate; businesses could go under. Chinese people will break these laws and promise overtime to get ahead. Chinese people show a lot of elitism in that they would rather work to death in Beijing/Shanghai/Shenzhen than move to a low tier city promised with bigger housing, cheaper food because that is seen as being more prestigious. Then what? Forced relocation? They literally having trouble getting XiongAn to build up because of these issues. It would be extremely difficult and dangerous to try to force horizontal expansion that way, and right now during the tech war, it's just not a good time to gamble like that.
What American actions are causing Japanese to kill themselves? Nagasaki? Stopping them from eating so many whales?
Crippled their economy
No, it's the unsustainable burden of millions of economically inactive old people being supported by a diminishing workforce.
Old people are more and more useful in an age of information. 60 year old professors can do a lot more than a few young guys working construction or running food orders these days.
 
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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
K. Not familiar with their situation, but that's because they're niche and not an overall powerhouse. But rather than spend time on them, I'll go with what Seige said.
It's being repeated because it still stands and you're not countering it. You're putting your fiction against fact.
Israel is valid as a counter argument. Even among secular Jews in Israel fertility rates are high, 2.2. The fact that Haredi Jews don't contribute much to the Israeli economy - these people still need to be fed, educated and housed. Yet Israel can manage that while still being a high HDI country. Israel is in the middle of the desert yet the average citizen has a much higher standard of living than the average Chinese person.

There is no equivalent in Chinese society to the Haredi Jews, so a net position fertility rate will be much more beneficial for society.

Even if we throw out Israel as an example, what about every west European and North European countries historically?

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The period between 1950 and 1975 aka the "baby boomer" generation was between 2.5 and 3. If those rates would have been maintained the west wouldn't be on the verge of collapse as it is now.

The idea that for a country to be developed fertility rates need to be sub replacement is a myth and certainly wasn't intended. If it's so good to have low fertility rates, why is virtually every developed country spending billions on trying to get people to have children?
Why are they receptive of so much immigration?
What you propose here could work if you kept up the infrastructure building (not a problem for China) but then you need food production as well as fishing to grow. That does increase but it is constrained by arable land and oceanic resources. China's not even fully food self-sufficient with the current population. The waters near China are already overfished. And the point is not to have enough food to survive if there was a war; in order to really increase people's standard of living to where they want to have kids (knowing that will make their lives much more difficult), it has to be good, highly desireable food. We're talking highly affordable fresh high quality seafood, beef, lamb, you can't just make some monster GMO grains and tell people they can eat all the bread/noodles they want because that won't really improve their quality of life.
As long as population growth is managed to predictable improvements in agriculture, there won't be any shortages. Over the last century, food availability has by far outgrown population growth.

Even if there is somehow a food shortage or we reach a bottleneck for food production. Historically what do countries do if they run low on land or resources? They expand, sometimes through war. If you don't do it someone else will.
And then, "could work" is not the same as "will work" because people are not machines; you cannot tell overly stressed tired-to-death people that they must have kids and more kids because you think it would counter-intuitively ameliorate a problem. They will not do it but they will emigrate. If you want people to have kids, you must bring down their life stress and increase their standard of living first. If that doesn't come down, people reproduce less, the population decreases, then the natural resources per capita rise and they achieve a more comfortable population equilibrium that way. This is how nature/the world works. That's how China is working now. What you imagine, won't work, firstly because you're not playing some online civilization game where people reproduce and populate where you want at the click of a mouse.
lol...civilisation was a cool game.

Developed countries don't depend on natural resources for wealth generation, that's what third world countries do. It's a reason why countries like Argentina are now poor. Maybe for a country like modern day Russia a shrinking population is a good idea.
If we were to try what you are advocating, China would need to build more "ghost cities," (easiest part, no problem) drastically increase food availability, making it very cheap to get a lot of (good) food (extremely challenging), and make laws limiting work hours to 40 or so a week with mandated wages to be at a certain level. The dangers are enumerate; businesses could go under. Chinese people will break these laws and promise overtime to get ahead. Chinese people show a lot of elitism in that they would rather work to death in Beijing/Shanghai/Shenzhen than move to a low tier city promised with bigger housing, cheaper food because that is seen as being more prestigious. Then what? Forced relocation? They literally having trouble getting XiongAn to build up because of these issues. It would be extremely difficult and dangerous to try to force horizontal expansion that way, and right now during the tech war, it's just not a good time to gamble like that.
If the population growth is slow enough there shouldn't be a need for ghost cities. That need comes from the urbanisation of rural China which is occurring at much higher rate and is probably the reason why services in major cities feel overwhelmed.

There's no fundamental difference between a two or three child policy and one child policy. No one will flee China because of it. Limit career growth and party membership to couple who have two or three children.

Westerners will talk about how evil CCP is but they'll be jealous as they are forced to resort to more and more migration to fill labour shortages.
Crippled their economy
Japan had the highest GDP per capita in the developed world for many years post WW2, was more industrialised than any western country for a while. America pretty much sacrificed their domestic auto industry and let the Japanese take over.
Old people are more and more useful in an age of information. 60 year old professors can do a lot more than a few young guys working construction or running food orders these days.
60 isn't a common age of retirement in most countries, especially for a professor. What about a more physical job?

I think old people are less useful than they were historically. Technology is moving too fast and a lot get left behind. In the olden times technology didn't change from childhood to old age. Nowadays the world changes a lot in 20 years, let alone a lifetime.

OECD countries are all gradually increasing the age of retirement. It's because they can no longer afford to offer the elderly the care they used to. Life expectancies have plateaued and will start dropping soon. And this is all despite the improvements in technology and medicine.

In a country like America the age of retirement is only a few years less than the average life expectancy of some groups, like black males. Eventually it will be like that for everyone.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Did you read my proposal in its entirety or did you just read the word "IVF" and go from there?
My apologies, I didn't. I've read your reddit post and I think your proposal is worse than just IVF or anything else I've read. Paying third world women money to carry children?

It'll be cheaper to just hand families $20,000 per child they have than your proposal.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Paying third world women money to carry children?
Yeah. Problem?
It'll be cheaper to just hand families $20,000 per child they have than your proposal.
First, citation needed. Second, do you know how insanity is defined? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. These impotent policies have been tried the world over and flopped, why would this time be any different?
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Yeah. Problem?

First, citation needed. Second, do you know how insanity is defined? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. These impotent policies have been tried the world over and flopped, why would this time be any different?
I can tell from your post that you or your wife has never had to go through IVF. Do you have any idea how much more difficult IVF is compared to a natural birth?

It would require China's healthcare system to be reshaped (which already is far from perfect) to accomodate mass IVF. You'd need to train thousands more gynaecologists, medical biologists and other professions. That'll mean fewer endocrinologists, fewer oncologists

Surrogate IVF becomes more expensive, in the UK it's 50% more expensive. That doesn't include the remuneration the surrogate gets (again in the UK officially is supposed to be zero). I assume in your suggestion these African women aren't going to be bearing children for free.

That will be 10+ million people that will need healthcare provisions. If they're coming from a country with not much healthcare you'll be starting from scratch and could be dealing with anything.

It would be more realistic to mass import women from Africa and impregnate them. China's national football team would improve too....

Western countries are limited in what they can do. If you want an example of a communist country that organically increased fertility rates, take a look at Romania.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I can tell from your post that you or your wife has never had to go through IVF. Do you have any idea how much more difficult IVF is compared to a natural birth?
You're mistaking correlation for causation. IVF is used by infertile couples, so of course it's going to appear more difficult than natural pregnancy. That's not because the technology is fundamentally limited, that's because the sample of people who use it is heavily biased. This is not a factor in how I propose to use it.
It would require China's healthcare system to be reshaped (which already is far from perfect) to accomodate mass IVF. You'd need to train thousands more gynaecologists, medical biologists and other professions. That'll mean fewer endocrinologists, fewer oncologists
That would be the case for any successful solution. Anything that increases births will entail more gynaecologists, obstetricians, etc. It's what you'd call "suffering from success."
Surrogate IVF becomes more expensive, in the UK it's 50% more expensive. That doesn't include the remuneration the surrogate gets (again in the UK officially is supposed to be zero). I assume in your suggestion these African women aren't going to be bearing children for free.
It's irrelevant what it costs in the UK, what matters is what it costs in a China that makes it a national priority to scale this technology. Solar panels were prohibitively expensive 10+ years ago and would have remained so indefinitely had China not decided to scale them and drop the price through the floor. This will also work should China decide it needs it to work. The West is a failure and if you're waiting for them to do anything right, you're going to die waiting.

Certainly these surrogate mothers would not do it for free. However, given that the only "qualification" is a functioning uterus, the payments could be minuscule and there would still be no end to the applicants. There are extremely poor people in the world and that's not going to ever change.
That will be 10+ million people that will need healthcare provisions. If they're coming from a country with not much healthcare you'll be starting from scratch and could be dealing with anything.
It's a logistical challenge, but that's just the kind of problem China excels at solving. It would require medical screening infrastructure and, of course, the cost of raising the resulting children properly. The money for this would come from the same place the government gets all its money: taxation. See, whether they want to or not, the Chinese populace is going to pay to raise China's future generations - whether it's their own kids or the state's kids, they're going to pay one way or the other.
Western countries are limited in what they can do. If you want an example of a communist country that organically increased fertility rates, take a look at Romania.
Yeah, I know about Ceausescu's orphanages. The problem isn't to get a spike of births, there's umpteen ways to do that. The problem is to get a sustainable solution. Given Romania's position today, I question their suitability as an example.

I feel a crucial component of my solution is being overlooked: the quality of the resulting population. These children will be selected for, among other desirable traits, intellectual capacity. It's far more likely that a Yang Wei or a Qian Xuesen will emerge from this cohort (adjusted for size) than from the general population. A far higher proportion of these children will go on to get STEM PhDs than the general population. These children would be huge economic multipliers, not just linearly supplementing a declining population.
 
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Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
You're mistaking correlation for causation. IVF is used by infertile couples, so of course it's going to appear more difficult than natural pregnancy. That's not because the technology is fundamentally limited, that's because the sample of people who use it is heavily biased. This is not a factor in how I propose to use it.

That would be the case for any successful solution. Anything that increases births will entail more gynaecologists, obstetricians, etc. It's what you'd call "suffering from success."

It's irrelevant what it costs in the UK, what matters is what it costs in a China that makes it a national priority to scale this technology. Solar panels were prohibitively expensive 10+ years ago and would have remained so indefinitely had China not decided to scale them and drop the price through the floor. This will also work should China decide it needs it to work. The West is a failure and if you're waiting for them to do anything right, you're going to die waiting.

Certainly these surrogate mothers would not do it for free. However, given that the only "qualification" is a functioning uterus, the payments could be minuscule and there would still be no end to the applicants. There are extremely poor people in the world and that's not going to ever change.

It's a logistical challenge, but that's just the kind of problem China excels at solving. It would require medical screening infrastructure and, of course, the cost of raising the resulting children properly. The money for this would come from the same place the government gets all its money: taxation. See, whether they want to or not, the Chinese populace is going to pay to raise China's future generations - whether it's their own kids or the state's kids, they're going to pay one way or the other.

Yeah, I know about Ceausescu's orphanages. The problem isn't to get a spike of births, there's umpteen ways to do that. The problem is to get a sustainable solution. Given Romania's position today, I question their suitability as an example.

I feel a crucial component of my solution is being overlooked: the quality of the resulting population. These children will be selected for, among other desirable traits, intellectual capacity. It's far more likely that a Yang Wei or a Qian Xuesen will emerge from this cohort (adjusted for size) than from the general population. A far higher proportion of these children will go on to get STEM PhDs than the general population. These children would be huge economic multipliers, not just linearly supplementing a declining population.
Your solution would be great if possible, but society won't accept it. I'm very much in favour of state bred and raised people, but I think this will remain science fiction for now

Paying families to have children hasn't really been tried yet. Usually childcare support schemes are just not generous enough to make a difference. If it costs 20,000 dollars to raise a child and your incentives are worth 5000 dollars, that's not going to help. You could also lower the retirement age for a few years for every child born to a woman. There are many financial incentives yet to be explored
 
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