Aircraft Carriers

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Scratch

Captain
...and essentially, you then have the Italian Cavour: ...or ther Spanis BPE:

It's more than coincidence that they are so similar in appearance. They will also be just as similar in capability and function.

But still Cavour and BPE would have twice the displacement and be 35-45m (115-148ft) longer. (The available deck length, especially of the BPE seems to be shorter, though)
That's not to say the japanese DDH can not carry more than 4 Helos, for sure it can. But aircraft seem still a bit far fetched to me on a ship under 200m of total length and not even 15000t displacement.
 

Jeff Head

General
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But still Cavour and BPE would have twice the displacement and be 35-45m (115-148ft) longer. (The available deck length, especially of the BPE seems to be shorter, though)
That's not to say the japanese DDH can not carry more than 4 Helos, for sure it can. But aircraft seem still a bit far fetched to me on a ship under 200m of total length and not even 15000t displacement.
Compare their full load displacements. The 16DDH is a 20,000 ton full load displacement carrier and is 650 ft long.

Also, even for the smaller displacement and shorter length carriers, check out these (both of which regularly operate Harriers off their decks):

Italian Garibaldi, 590 ft, 13,000 tons, and a very, very slight bow jump.

garibaldi1.jpg


Thai Chakri Naruebet, 600 ft, 12,000 tons.

naruebet1.jpg


You can get an excellent comparison of all the operational aircraft carriers of the world at:

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Scratch

Captain
OK, I somehow had the impression the DDH was at 13.500t full disp.
BTW, do Harriers taking off from the shallow skyjump of a Gabrialdi do that with their fans straight back or angled downward like when taking of from a LHA (at least I think that's the normal STO procedure on LHAs)?

And though these Harriers won't be able to carry much payload, it sure is better than having no aircraft at all.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
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Normal ski jump launch procedure is to begin the takeoff roll with nozzles aft for maximum acceleration, then when the threshold of the ramp is reached the nozzle control lever is thrown back to 55degrees (preset before launch with a 'stop' on the nozzle lever) to provide the necessary lift, as an aircraft launching by ski jump has a ramp exit speed of about 80 knots. This is too low for wingborne flight but the aircraft now has an upward vector to it's trajectory (like a car going over a hump backed bridge too fast) and continues to accelerate, reaching true flying speed before it begins to drop back down again. This give the effect of taking off from a much longer runway and Cmdr Taylor's original thesis which lead to the Ski Jump was called 'The Runway in the Sky', referring to the 'virtual' aspect of the takeoff run beyond the end of the ramp (the gap between leaving the ramp and reaching wingborne flight)
In the 70s Vosper Thorneycroft (British Shipbuilder) propsed a small 8,000ton Harrier carrier, or about half the size of the JMSDFs 16DDH:
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In the Falklands War two Sea Harriers landed on the LPDs Fearless and Intrepid to refuel in San Carlos Water bfeore returning to fight the next wave of Argentine aircraft. Size (of ship) is not that big a deal for the Harrier family, nor are elaborate maintenance facilities. The original RAF Harriers were designed to operated from clearings in the forest, away from fully equipped hangars. Whenever someone states that ship X cannot operate Harriers simply because it doesn't normally do so misses the point of Harrier type aircraft; They can go anywhere there is sufficient room to land, refuel, rearm and takeoff again. Even a helipad on a DDG would do if it is big enough for Sea King sized Helos. Not ideal, but it beats ditching in the sea. When Harriers were ferried south from Ascension Island to the Task Force in 82 the Helicoter training vessel RFA Engadine was stationed halfway along the route as an emergency landing ship just in case. USMC Harriers don't have the benefit of Ski Jumps so just have to make longer takeoff runs from admittedly longer decks. This is why they tend to be spotted aft on a LHD/LHA, so they have the full length of the deck to launch from.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
In the 70s Vosper Thorneycroft (British Shipbuilder) propsed a small 8,000ton Harrier carrier, or about half the size of the JMSDFs 16DDH:
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USMC Harriers don't have the benefit of Ski Jumps so just have to make longer takeoff runs from admittedly longer decks. This is why they tend to be spotted aft on a LHD/LHA, so they have the full length of the deck to launch from.
Excellent, excellent comments Obi Wan. Thank you!

I really like that 1970's Vosper desing as a potential design for a modern Jeep-carrier, and its STO deck run was only 420 ft (128m)!

I could see just a few alterations (like deck edge elevators, a little more length and width - but not much) to allow for an air-wing of say 10-12 JSF's, two AEW V-22s, and 2 ASW V-22's and then you would have a VERY powerful escort carrier for convoys and Phibrons freeing up the big decks for the large air support and strike at sea roles. I could see a nation building 16-20 of those smaller decks while maintaining 12-14 large decks. IMHO, that is exactly what the US should be doing at this stage...but that is just my own opinion.
 
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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
If you can peg the size to 10,000tons then the possibilty of building more than one arises for most small navies. The problem comes when a small CV is proposed the temptation is to drive the size upwards, because all carriers (indeed all warship types) become arguably more effective the larger they are. This is a 'Quality over Quantity' argument, and in some cases 'more' (number of hulls) is better than 'superior' (size of hull). Put simplisticly, would a small navy be better off with one 20-30,000ton CV or two or three 10,000ton CVEs. In the latter case they will be able to keep air cover over their fleet close to 100% of the time, and surge a second or even third carrier shortly thereafter. In the USNs case, 16 such vessels would be an excellent idea, which is why it won't happen. It's the Sea Control Ship argument all over again, these vessels will be seen as a threat to continued CVN construction (which they aren't) and be cancelled in favour of a compromise, ie giving large deck amphibs a secondary sea control role (back to square one!). These 'CVEs' are not competing with larger carriers in role, but with Cruisers/large DDGs to provide air defence/ASW for the fleet and for convoy escort (still important even now) releasing larger more important units for more offensive roles.
 

Kim Jong Il

Banned Idiot
Re: All about the Chinese Carrier II

What ever type CV the PLAN sends to see will be a big step in the right direction. It seems we have all been waiting a long, long time to see it come to fruitition.

Oh by the way. The USN will soon be down to a force of 11 carriers. CV-67 will be decomissioned on 23 March 2007.

yea that is true, but then the CV-67 will be replaced by one of the CVN-21 class aircraft carriers. So the carrier force will from 12 to 11 then it will go back up to 12 ships.
 

Scratch

Captain
Re: All about the Chinese Carrier II

yea that is true, but then the CV-67 will be replaced by one of the CVN-21 class aircraft carriers. So the carrier force will from 12 to 11 then it will go back up to 12 ships.

The first CVN-21, the CVN-78 will probably be commisioned in 2014. The transitional CVN-77, will enter service in the meantime.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: All about the Chinese Carrier II

yea that is true, but then the CV-67 will be replaced by one of the CVN-21 class aircraft carriers. So the carrier force will from 12 to 11 then it will go back up to 12 ships.
Looking at the Carrier Building Schedule, the JFK is being decommissioned much earlier than originally projected. Orignally they were holding her out until 2018 to be replaced by CVN-79. I Still believe they are planning to decom the Kitty Hawk next year so that CVN-77, the GHW Bush replaces her.

So we now have JFK going in 2007 with no replacement, KH going in 2008, to be replaced by CVN-77, Enterprise going in 2013, being replaced by CVN-78, and then CVN-79 coming on in 2018. That's when the force level will go back up to 12 carriers. For the next ten years, unless a change occurs and they hold over KH and the Big E for four more years each, the USN will remain at 11 until that time.

USCarrierBuild.gif
 
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Scratch

Captain
Just came across this pic, it's amazing to see the evolvement from CV-1 USS Langeley to todays CVNs. :)
Back then the ships were nearly moving fast enough that an aircraft could take off with 10m start-up.

I added a pic of the greatest CV of em all Enterprise popeye

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4mhafyh.jpg
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