Aircraft Carriers

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Obi Wan Russell

Obi Wan Russell

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Here's pic two. Although the Cat and the wires are gone, the projector sights have been retained hence the angled centre line. This is so that suitably modified land based trainer aircraft (strengthened undercarriage) can practice 'touch and gos' from the deck, useful experience for the Varyag's first air group....
 
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Obi Wan Russell

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I'm slowly working my way through the Colossus /Majestic class CVs, as there are so many interesting variations on the same theme according to different countries (and different engineers) so after HMAS Melbourne, here is the Late lamented Brazilian Carrier, the Minas Gerais.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

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Thanks Obi Wan. Great drawings. It is my feeling that the PLAN learned a lot from the ole Melbourne..We shall have to wait and see. What else is new?!
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I got into a little row in another forum about the JMSDF 13,500 ton LPH..eerrr I mean DDH. It has been explained to me that it is in fact an DDH or possible "Sea Control" ship. This puzzles me. The ship is basically the same size of an old USN Iwo Jima class LPH. The crew is only 350+. The LPH-2 class had a crew of 700+ also carring 1,750 Marines(air wing & assult force)

Now I have to tell you an old LPH-2 was a large ship. A crew of only 350 on the 16DDH could barely keep that ship clean. It's though on the JMSDF 16DDH do all the crew get a state room? The mess decks must be huge as must sick bay, fully equipped gyms. Do they have a Wal-Mart on board???... Etc, etc...It's just to large for that small of a crew. I don't care how modern it is.

I realize also the Osumi class LST will work in unison with the 16DDH.

The JMSDF claims the ship will carry only 4-6 helos???:confused: More than likely those ships can carry at least 25-30 helos or more. Maybe JSF. I think the ship has to have adquate work centers on board to suppourt that many helos. I.E.>>SH-60 variants and Merlins 101. I see no reason why not. Bottom Line is we will have to wait and see. Just like the PLAN.

If someone has better pics of this "destroyer" please post!
 

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Obi Wan Russell

Obi Wan Russell

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bd popeye said:
Thanks Obi Wan. Great drawings. It is my feeling that the PLAN learned a lot from the ole Melbourne..We shall have to wait and see. What else is new?!
__________________________________________________________

I got into a little row in another forum about the JMSDF 13,500 ton LPH..eerrr I mean DDH. It has been explained to me that it is in fact an DDH or possible "Sea Control" ship. This puzzles me. The ship is basically the same size of an old USN Iwo Jima class LPH. The crew is only 350+. The LPH-2 class had a crew of 700+ also carring 1,750 Marines(air wing & assult force)

Now I have to tell you an old LPH-2 was a large ship. A crew of only 350 on the 16DDH could barely keep that ship clean. It's though on the JMSDF 16DDH do all the crew get a state room? The mess decks must be huge as must sick bay, fully equipped gyms. Do they have a Wal-Mart on board???... Etc, etc...It's just to large for that small of a crew. I don't care how modern it is.

I realize also the Osumi class LST will work in unison with the 15DDH.

The JMSDF claims the ship will carry only 4-6 helos???:confused: More than likely those ships can carry at least 25-30 helos or more. Maybe JSF. I think the ship has to have adquate work centers on board to suppourt that many helos. I.E.>>SH-60 variants and Merlins 101. I see no reason why not. Bottom Line is we will have to wait and see. Just like the PLAN.

If someone has better pics of this "destroyer" please post!
Click to expand...

I think it's safe to say the 'DDH' designation is about as honest as the 'Through deck cruiser' (AKA See-Through Cruiser) moniker applied to the Invincible class, and for much the same reason. Coffee, the, up, wake, smell, and? I think the most accurate designations for them would be CVS or CVL, but as long as the current Japanese constitution is in force the DDH fantasy will be maintained. It is worth noting also that none of the RN's five flat tops (Invincible, Illustrious, Ark Royal, Argus, and Ocean) were ordered as Aircraft Carriers, but clearly that is what they are. If you want a CV, just tell the politicians it is something else, because despite being idealogically opposed to Carriers, they usually haven't the faintest idea what one looks like! Although the Japanese have not ordered any F-35Bs I'm sure they are keeping an eye on it's progress as part of a contingency against regional developments...;)
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bd popeye said:
The JMSDF claims the ship will carry only 4-6 helos??? More than likely those ships can carry at least 25-30 helos or more. Maybe JSF.
Click to expand...

It depends on things like the size of the hangers - HMS Ocean is over 20,000 tonnes but has only room for 18 helicopters (then again it does have provision for 800 Royal Marines). It is undeniable that a dozen or more helos can be carried on the new MSDF ships, but it could be that during peace-time less will be. After all there wouldn't be a need to have them at full capacity, provided the crews got enough training.

Personally I don't think they will take the F-35B simply because it would be a much more clear violation of the Constitution. Plus it's debatable how useful they would be without ski-jumps. Best to keep them as ASW platforms to really give the MSDF an even larger capability against submarines.

Anyway, they won't be in service for another two years.
 
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bd popeye

bd popeye

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Thanks Gents for the pictures and your responses!:)

If you look at the picture of the flight deck and see the spacing of those "helo spots"(helo landing and take off marks) they sure are spread out. It's ludricous to waste that much flight deck space.

If that picture is indeed to scale that ship should be able to handle perhaps 3-4 more spots on the flight deck. Once again judging by that picture of the flight deck I can easily see up to 20+ helos "spotted"(parked) on that deck.

Anyone have any idea how big the hangar deck is?

Obi Wan..can you redraw that flight deck in the following manner?
1) Add at least 3 helo landing/recovery spots.

2) Position Merlins and SH-60s as they may be parked on the flight deck in prepration to launch as not to interfere with the safe operation of the flight deck. Don't block those lifts(elevators).

Thanks!
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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bd popeye said:
Thanks Gents for the pictures and your responses!:)

If you look at the picture of the flight deck and see the spacing of those "helo spots"(helo landing and take off marks) they sure are spread out. It's ludricous to waste that much flight deck space.

If that picture is indeed to scale that ship should be able to handle perhaps 3-4 more spots on the flight deck. Once again judging by that picture of the flight deck I can easily see up to 20+ helos "spotted"(parked) on that deck.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Here you go popeye, how's this for starts.

JMSDF-16DDH-FullLoad-1.jpg


JMSDF-16DDH-FullLoad-2.jpg
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

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Thanks Jeff..I would have not put a spot on the stern. I would have reserved that area for more aircraft...Nice job all in all:)

I love the fact that the JMSDF16DDH has twin screws..The old Iwo Jima class were single screw. Not a good idea in case of a major engineer malfunction.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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bd popeye said:
Thanks Jeff..I wolf have not put a spot on the stern. I would have reserved that area for more aircraft...Nice job all in all:)

I love the fact that the JMSDF16DDH has twin screws..The old Iwo Jima class were single screw. Not a good idea in case of a major engineer malfunction.
Click to expand...
Nice things about digital pics located at a URL...easy to update. Bow landing spot removed...and will show up that way in the older posted pics as soon as you do a refresh.

I wish there was a better artists rendering of the 16DDH, like realistic at sea...then I could take a deck load of Iwo Jima copters and overlay it on the deck of the 16DDH, sort of like that PS'ed PLAN carrier pic.
 
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Obi Wan Russell

Obi Wan Russell

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Great pics. I'd have had a go myself but I've just got back from work (I work nights, it's quieter, and sunlight kills Vamp... I mean I get paid more for night work.) I think the nearest historical parallell for these ships would be something like the Independence class CVLs, small fast and punching above their weight. Though they were based on cruiser hulls they were not referred to as CL(V)/ Aircraft Carrying Light Cruisers, but Light carriers, which is how these vessels should be described. A DDH (Helicopter carrying Destroyer) is a term applicable to the preceding Haruna and Shirane classes (and the Canadian Iroquois class for example) but these are a different breed.

I liked the Iwo Jima class aestethically and always thought a stretched variant (say 150ft longer) with two screws and more powerful engines would have been a contender to replace the ex British light fleet CVs around the world. For a commercially minded nation like the US they seem to have missed a trick there.
 
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