Air and Strike Campaigns for PLA relevance

Blitzo

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That doesn't change the fact that the targeting activities were concentrated around Kosovo. The number of aim points is a function of many things - geography (terrain difficulty), size, preparedness of defenses; infrastructure capacity; and sophistication of military defense complex. In all this metrics, I would argue that Taiwan would present a much greater challenge than the Kosovo campaign. The number of aim points follows from these metrics.

Unless you can some evidence for what proportion the overall Allied Force campaign was distributed in terms of geography, I don't think you can claim how "concentrated" the targeting was.

If you review the way the actual air campaign occurred, you will find that Allied Force's overall air campaign lasted 78 days, and that it was composed of three phases:
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The air campaign consisted of three phases: phase one focused on Serbian air defense systems; phase two called for strikes against military targets in Serbia below the 44th parallel and south to the Kosovo border; and in phase three airstrikes would seek targets north of the 44th parallel, including striking Serbia's capital Belgrade.

.... and if you look a bit lower, you'll see:

When the phase one strikes did not achieve their intended effect on Milosevic, NATO proceeded with phase two strikes south of the 44th parallel. During this phase, the U.S. Air Force introduced B-1 bombers while NATO forces also averaged just 50 strikes per night. Realizing that it would take a more intensive effort to force Milosevic to withdraw his troops from Kosovo, NATO moved to phase three on the ninth day of the air offensive. U.S. Navy aircraft joined the operation on April 6, with the arrival of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt. Operation ALLIED FORCE had struggled to meet its objectives for several reasons, including poor weather, difficult terrain, and problems inherent in coordinating 18 allied air forces.

In other words, by day 9 of the campaign that would end up lasting 78 days, the whole of the FRY was already authorizedfor NATO bombardment, moving well beyond only "south of the 44th parallel".

And if you even look at a map, you'll see that "south of the 44th parallel" is still much bigger than Kosovo alone (the below from Operation Allied Force - Lessons for the Future
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)

dDZ1S37.jpg



But if you have any evidence to suggest that "the targeting activities were concentrated around Kosovo" then feel free to provide it.
Otherwise, your argument flies in the face of what evidence we have of the NATO area of operations during 69 out of 78 days of Allied Force.



After the low hangings fruits, the dispersed and well camouflage targets will be still be a problem. The Chinese airforce will need to go below 10000 feet to go after those targets. Manpads will present the greatest problem. It is the same in Kosovo, Iraq, Libya and even in the recent ME conflicts. China has no experience fighting a modern war and there is no track record to measure its capabilities. At least we know from the different air campaigns that it will not be easy and the air strikes has limited effectiveness against a discipline and well camouflaged defenses. .

Why will the PLA have to strike the dispersed and camouflaged targets in the first place? More importantly, will the ROC even be able to disperse their units on the ground adequately when facing the imminent threat of a PLA amphibious invasion and ground component of the war? (See my final part of this post where I expand on both of these points)


Seriously less aim points and much more easily located. Based on what?

Based on the fact that vast majority of the the Allied Force campaign was covering the entirety of Yugoslavia at the time which is about three times the overall surface area of Taiwan.

And based on the fact that one major category of targets that Allied Force was targeting was individual VJ and MUP troop units, and that NATO deliberately tailored their air campaign in a way because they wanted to avoid sending in ground troops is also significantly different to what the PLA would seek to achieve in a Taiwan campaign.

Page 28 and 29 of "NATO's Air War for Kosovo A Strategic and Operational Assessment":
pg 28 and 29.png


Page 43:
pg 43.png

Page 120 and 121 below details the difficulty of targeting ground units using air power alone without the opfor's ground units facing the threat of an imminent ground threat (which would cause them to be unable to disperse and hide):

OTOH for the PLA, they will not have to leave the job of targeting all mobile ground units with air power alone because they will have a major ground/amphibious component of their overall Taiwan strategy, meaning they do not have to target the same kind of dispersed and camoflaged FRY troops and vehicles in the way NATO did during Allied Force, because NATO was willing to commit to a ground component of their overall strategy.

Furthermore, the fact that the PLA will have a ground/amphibious component of its strategy means it will force the ROCA to be unable to hide and disperse their troops and units in the same way that the FRY did during Allied Force, because if FRY forces faced a NATO ground war as well then they would have had to position their forces in a way to adequately respond to NATO units in formations and in locations that they could be much more easily targeted.

pg 120.png

In a previous post you mentioned the terrain of Yugoslavia being mountainous and making NATO targeting more difficult, therefore the PLA will face similar difficulties.
However, you don't seem to recall that the terrain of Yugoslavia is vastly different to that of Taiwan, because Yugoslavia's mountainous terrain has valleys which makes airborne targeting much more difficult while Taiwan has a main eastern mountainous ridge but mild sloping plains on the west (where, funnily enough, the major population and industrial and military centers and bases are).

AALWbik.jpg

jzoKz9r.jpg


Page 105 and 106 which describes that specific factor:
pg 105 and 106.png


====

So overall I do not agree with your efforts to use the Allied Force air campaign experience to argue that a PLA air and strike campaign against Taiwan would have more aimpoints or require more munitions, in fact I would consider the opposite, because of two major reasons:

1. The overall Allied Force air campaign duration covered the whole of Yugoslavia at the time (69 out of 78 days despite the initial campaign being much more limited in scope at phases 1 and 2), with an overall surface area that is about 3 times the size of Taiwan, and there is no evidence or statistics that you have provided which suggests that those 69 out of 78 days of bombing were specifically focused at or around Kosovo. If you have any evidence or statistics then I'm happy to observe it.

2. The Allied Force air campaign was deliberately made in a manner because NATO wanted to avoid sending in ground troops, greatly increasing the difficulty of targeting FRY troops and ground units because it provided them the initiative to be capable of dispersing and hiding when not facing an imminent ground threat. For the PLA, their overall Taiwan strategy include a major ground/amphibious component -- meaning they do not have to use air power to destroy the mobile fighting forces of the ROC Army in the first place. In other words, for the PLA, their air campaign/strike campaign will primarily be focused on the so-called "low hanging fruit" and they have no need to target the similar more difficult and more mobile targets that NATO was forced to target during Allied Force.
  • However, the fact that the PLA will be launching a major ground component to their Taiwan strategy also means the ROC Army will not be able to disperse and hide in the same way the FRY's ground troops and vehicles were, because the ROCA will be forced to organize their forces in a way to prepare for a PLA amphibious assault and ground war, meaning if the PLA did want to conduct strikes (whether it be air strikes, missile strikes or long range MLRS strikes) against ROC Army ground forces, the ROCA will not be able to hide and disperse like the FRY troops did.
 
the bottom line here is if an invasion was imminent -- for instance port towns full of troops, not just ships, etc. -- what would the Pentagon do;
one of its options would be to send sort of cannon fodder in the form of hundreds of military 'instructors' to Taiwanese air bases, to either
  • get killed there during initial strikes, or
  • prevent such escalation (by just sitting there)
 

Blitzo

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the bottom line here is if an invasion was imminent -- for instance port towns full of troops, not just ships, etc. -- what would the Pentagon do;
one of its options would be to send sort of cannon fodder in the form of hundreds of military 'instructors' to Taiwanese air bases, to either
  • get killed there during initial strikes, or
  • prevent such escalation (by just sitting there)

For any kind of Taiwan contingency discussion it usually ignores immediate direct involvement of third parties (including the US), until later on after conflict between the PLA and ROC have already been joined for a period.

Otherwise you begin to make assumptions of what kind of geopolitical policy the US may or may not have, which becomes a much bigger and complex discussion. That's beyond the scope of this thread not to mention this forum. And of course if one decides to choose to make the assumption of early US involvement then it merely becomes a game of geopolitical chicken and/or escalation of conflict to the nuclear threshold, which makes any sort of discussion about PLA strategy in XYZ domain to be moot.

So don't open up that can of worms.
 
For any kind of Taiwan contingency discussion it usually ignores immediate direct involvement of third parties (including the US), until later on after conflict between the PLA and ROC have already been joined for a period.

Otherwise you begin to make assumptions of what kind of geopolitical policy the US may or may not have, which becomes a much bigger and complex discussion. That's beyond the scope of this thread not to mention this forum. And of course if one decides to choose to make the assumption of early US involvement then it merely becomes a game of geopolitical chicken and/or escalation of conflict to the nuclear threshold, which makes any sort of discussion about PLA strategy in XYZ domain to be moot.

So don't open up that can of worms.
OK so this thread assumes an invasion would be fought off by the Taiwanese only, well it's likely and again, should an invasion become imminent ("for instance port towns full of troops, not just ships, etc." Today at 9:13 AM), it'd be critical they fully mobilize
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of almost two million (?!) members, I guess most of them of a questionable value in combat, but still making it clear the casualties would be in thousands KIA which is something unacceptable these days
 

Blitzo

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OK so this thread assumes an invasion would be fought off by the Taiwanese only, well it's likely and again, should an invasion become imminent ("for instance port towns full of troops, not just ships, etc." Today at 9:13 AM), it'd be critical they fully mobilize
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of almost two million (?!) members, I guess most of them of a questionable value in combat, but still making it clear the casualties would be in thousands KIA which is something unacceptable these days

I really don't mind having a thorough discussion specifically around what kind of geopolitical context a Taiwan conflict might occur in and what kind of time scale we are giving between the build up of tensions to active hostilities and the length of active hostilities each side is aiming to achieve.



But those are much more complex and geopolitical questions relating as much to national strategy rather than only military strategy, so we are not bothering with them. This thread is looking at a lower level, arguably the operational level of warfare and options that the PLA would have in terms of what kind of air and strike campaign they would seek to wage vs the likely opfor they would face from ROC forces in the foreseeable future.


Therefore, asking "when will the US intervene" or "will the US intervene" is not a useful or interesting question for this thread.
 
I really don't mind having a thorough discussion specifically around what kind of geopolitical context a Taiwan conflict might occur in and what kind of time scale we are giving between the build up of tensions to active hostilities and the length of active hostilities each side is aiming to achieve.



But those are much more complex and geopolitical questions relating as much to national strategy rather than only military strategy, so we are not bothering with them. This thread is looking at a lower level, arguably the operational level of warfare and options that the PLA would have in terms of what kind of air and strike campaign they would seek to wage vs the likely opfor they would face from ROC forces in the foreseeable future.


Therefore, asking "when will the US intervene" or "will the US intervene" is not a useful or interesting question for this thread.
10 minutes ago
in the post you now quoted I didn't talk the US, I talked a determination of the Taiwanese to fight, and expressed my opinion if they showed this determination, it'd deter an invasion, as under those circumstances the casualties would be too high to be hidden from public

EDIT
"Taking Taiwan in less than three days"
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wouldn't be possible
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

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10 minutes ago
in the post you now quoted I didn't talk the US, I talked a determination of the Taiwanese to fight, and expressed my opinion if they showed this determination, it'd deter an invasion, as under those circumstances the casualties would be too high to be hidden from public

EDIT
"Taking Taiwan in less than three days"
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wouldn't be possible

You wrote "still making it clear the casualties would be in thousands KIA which is something unacceptable these days" -- unacceptable to who? I was under the impression that by saying this you were talking about some kind of third party.

But if you're only talking about Taiwan, well yes, obviously any Taiwan contingency will depend on the level of resolve that each side has (i.e.: that of China and that of Taiwan). That goes without saying.
 

AndrewS

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OK so this thread assumes an invasion would be fought off by the Taiwanese only, well it's likely and again, should an invasion become imminent ("for instance port towns full of troops, not just ships, etc." Today at 9:13 AM), it'd be critical they fully mobilize
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of almost two million (?!) members, I guess most of them of a questionable value in combat, but still making it clear the casualties would be in thousands KIA which is something unacceptable these days

That's not how they think.

A Chinese invasion force would fully expect "tens of thousands KIA" in a long campaign.
But remember that the Chinese Army doesn't need to actually conscript anyone, because it receives sufficient volunteers.
So the Chinese Army is actually a professional volunteer army, with the acceptance of casualties that this entails.

And given the sheer size of the Chinese Army and the Chinese population, "tens of thousands KIA" means it rarely affects the average person.

---

Consider how there are 260,000 people killed in road accidents every year in China.
That puts "tens of thousands KIA" into perspective
 

AndrewS

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10 minutes ago
in the post you now quoted I didn't talk the US, I talked a determination of the Taiwanese to fight, and expressed my opinion if they showed this determination, it'd deter an invasion, as under those circumstances the casualties would be too high to be hidden from public

EDIT
"Taking Taiwan in less than three days"
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wouldn't be possible

But China has an even greater determination to subdue Taiwan.

1. It's an unresolved civil war, and the existence of Taiwan threatens the legitimacy of the Communist Party and the ruling Politburo.
2. The Taiwan issue has been drummed into the population for decades now.
3. If a conflict begins, Taiwan must be subdued. Otherwise Taiwanese independence means US military forces will be stationed in Taiwan, posing a offensive threat to mainland China, and which will also ensure the 1st Island Chain can contain China militarily.

High casualties will not deter the Chinese leadership or the Chinese military, if they know that an invasion will eventually be successful.
 
That's not how they think.

A Chinese invasion force would fully expect "tens of thousands KIA" in a long campaign.
But remember that the Chinese Army doesn't need to actually conscript anyone, because it receives sufficient volunteers.
So the Chinese Army is actually a professional volunteer army, with the acceptance of casualties that this entails.

And given the sheer size of the Chinese Army and the Chinese population, "tens of thousands KIA" means it rarely affects the average person.

---

Consider how there are 260,000 people killed in road accidents every year in China.
That puts "tens of thousands KIA" into perspective
first a technical: I didn't say "tens of thousands KIA" Yesterday at 12:00 PM -- your use of quotation marks left me with the impression you thought I did say "tens of thousands KIA" Yesterday at 12:00 PM, while my personal guess would've been several units of thousands invaders KIA (below ten thousands) until a capitulation of Taiwan

anyway I think if the continental China knew there would be like a half of million rifles really shooting at invaders, and potentially hundreds of thousands rifles hidden in caches and used during an occupation, it wouldn't go in
 
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