2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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Piotr

Banned Idiot
Apparently many people in Eastern Ukraine are employing nonviolent civil disobedience (just like Mahatma Gandhi). Video from Kramatorsk:
[video=youtube_share;75dlup0WXGY]http://youtu.be/75dlup0WXGY[/video]
Mahatma Gandhi suceded in destroing English colonial empire.
And according to Maidan "minister" Avakov:
"We're moving forward in Kramatorsk with dense fire from the side of terrorists. Fight is going on," Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov wrote on his Facebook page.
Avakov has problem with basic facts.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
CIA and FBI agents are in Kiev, maybe someone can take a guess on why they are there.
The report says why they are there, and it is not what you are implying in the least. Do not try to drum up ideological and inflaming arguments.

Cyclist, I suggest you look back a few posts and read the part in dark blue that was posted there as moderator's instructions.

Again, we do not need one sided, agenda driven, or ideological posts.

Russia has its agents in country too.

If the thread heads down a path that (on either side) basically says that this side or that side is the cause of all of the problems and it is all their fault, either the person doing that will be banned and their posts removed as I stated earlier, or the thread will be closed.

Accordingly, your post has been removed and you are receiving a warning.

This forum is not an ideological/political forum.


Report on what is happening, the basic news. Do not go down a path trying to place blame and fault on one side or the other. There's plenty to go around, and there is a long history here.

The people of Ukraine are hopefully going to vote themselves this month to determine their own leaders and future. That's how it should be, and lets all hope that takes place.

If we cannot report and discuss this impartially, it will be closed.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
BBC has been caught red-handed avoiding facts:

I remember that BBC was lying in 2008. I remember...
Piotr, post news, not opinions. That was made clear in my last post, and the one before it as a moderator.

So, as with Cyclist, you post is removed.

To engage in saying that the press is lying is a zero sum game. Each side can and will say that about each other and it leads to nothing but argument and bashing.

Straight, impartial news. The members will figure out the rest themselves. But it will not be discussed and bandied about here. This is not that type of forum.

Go some where else to engage in political/ideological finger pointing and brinksmanship.

So, once again, your post is removed. In your case, because this is not the first time for you, you are receiving a one week suspension. This is your second suspension from SD. The next one will be permanent.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
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Fighting continued in eastern Ukraine on Sunday as pro-Russian rebels fought back against government forces trying to dislodge them from several towns in the Donetsk region.

Rebels from the self-proclaimed people's republic of Donetsk said they retained control of the towns of Slavyansk and Konstantinovka after overnight fighting between government forces and rebel militia.

The Ukrainian authorities have said they had Slavyansk "surrounded.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
May 04, 2014
Nearly 70 Pro-Russian Detainees Released in Odessa
by VOA News
Pro-Russian militants stormed a Ukrainian police station in Odessa on Sunday and freed nearly 70 fellow activists as Ukraine’s prime minister blamed police corruption there for dozens of deaths in rioting on Friday.

About 300 pro-Russian activists forced their way into the Odessa police station, gathering in the courtyard, while about a thousand more surrounded the modern complex.

"Russians won't abandon their own!" militants chanted as they smashed windows and broke down the gate at the compound, where comrades had been held since Friday's mayhem.

A spokesman for the regional police said about 170 people were initially detained after pro-Russian activists clashed with supporters of Ukrainian unity on Friday.

Odessa police said 67 activists had been released.

As rebellion simmered, questions were raised about the ability of the army as well as police to confront an uprising Kyiv said is backed by Moscow and led in the field by Russian special forces - an accusation the Kremlin denies.

​​
Critical of police

Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, speaking in Odessa on Sunday, accused Russia of engineering Friday's clashes there that led to the deaths of more than 40 pro-Russian activists in a blazing building.

But he was pointedly critical of the police.

Yatsenyuk suggested the Odessa police were more interested in the fruits of corruption than maintaining order. Had they done their job, he said, ``these terrorist organizations would have been foiled.”

Odessa's police chief was fired on Saturday and Yatsenyuk said other changes in leadership were planned.

“The prosecutor's office is to investigate everyone - starting with the chief of police, his deputies and every single police officer," Yatsenyuk said, according to the BBC.

Russia, which annexed the Crimean peninsula from Ukraine in March, said it would try to organize talks between Kyiv and representatives from the southeast: "It appears that without external help the Kyiv authorities are not capable of establishing such a dialogue," Russian deputy foreign minister Grigory Karasin told Rossiya-24 television.

Germany's foreign minister also said he was pressing for a second international conference at Geneva to bring Russia and Ukraine together with the United States and European Union to settle the dispute.

Moscow and Kyiv accuse each other of wrecking a four-way accord to end the conflict signed at Geneva on April 17.

Elsewhere on Sunday, witnesses and experts said several dozen Russian planes including what appeared to be strategic bombers and fighter jets have been spotted in the sky above the Moscow-controlled peninsula of Crimea.

According to Russian media, President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to visit Crimea on Friday after overseeing the main military parade on the Red Square when Russia celebrates its victory over Nazi Germany in World War II.

A local aviation expert told AFP on Sunday that he had sighted a number of planes over the peninsula's main city of Simferopol on Saturday, including supersonic heavy strategic bombers and heavy military transport aircraft.

The expert, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said he had also seen refueling tankers and MiG-29 jets.
​​
Worst fighting since February

Friday's clashes were the deadliest since Moscow-oriented president Viktor Yanukovich was forced to flee in February and pro-Russian militants launched uprisings in the industrial east. They also marked the first serious disorder beyond eastern areas since Yanukovich fell, heralding possible trouble for Kyiv.

Kyiv is organizing a presidential election for May 25. However, as things stand, it would have trouble conducting the vote in many parts of the east, a circumstance that would allow Russia to declare any government emerging as bereft of legitimacy.

Separatists who have declared a "People's Republic of Donetsk” are planning a referendum on secession on May 11.

The Ukraine army suffered an embarrassing upset near the eastern town of Mariupol when soldiers at a checkpoint accepted food offered to them by a group presenting themselves as public-spirited citizens. Such donations have been common in recent weeks, as Ukraine's forces suffer a serious lack of resources.

The food had been laced with a sleeping potion. Once incapacitated, the soldiers were then bundled off along with their weapons, prompting long talks to free them. The five soldiers, taken prisoner on Saturday, were released on Sunday.

The capital Kyiv has remained quiet since the protests that forced Yanukovich to flee to Russia. But celebrations this week marking the anniversary of the Soviet victory in World War Two could be a source of tension.

Some information for this report provided by AFP, Reuters, AP.

Behind the Masks in Ukraine, Many Faces of Rebellion
By C. J. CHIVERS and NOAH SNEIDERMAY 3, 2014

SLOVYANSK, Ukraine — The rebel leader spread a topographic map in front of a closed grocery store here as a Ukrainian military helicopter flew past a nearby hill. Ukrainian troops had just seized positions along a river, about a mile and a half away. The commander thought they might advance.

He issued orders with the authority of a man who had seen many battles. “Go down to the bridge and set up the snipers,” the leader, who gave only a first name, Yuri, said to a former Ukrainian paratrooper, who jogged away.

Yuri commands the 12th Company, part of the self-proclaimed People’s Militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic, a previously unknown and often masked rebel force that since early April has seized government buildings in eastern Ukraine and, until Saturday, held prisoner a team of European military observers it accused of being NATO spies.


A rebel checkpoint Saturday as Ukrainian troops pressed their assault on separatists in the east.Ukraine Presses Pro-Russia Militants After Fighting Spreads to a Port CityMAY 3, 2014
Photos Link Masked Men in East Ukraine to RussiaAPRIL 20, 2014
His is one of the faces behind the shadowy paramilitary takeover. But even with his mask off, much about his aims, motivations and connections remains murky, illustrating why this expanding conflict is still so complex.


Yuri, who appears to be in his mid-50s, is in many ways an ordinary eastern Ukrainian of his generation. A military veteran, he survived the Soviet collapse to own a small construction business in Druzhkovka, about 15 miles south of here.

But his rebel stature has a particular root: He is also a former Soviet special forces commander who served in Afghanistan, a background that could make him both authentically local and a capable Kremlin proxy.

In this war, clouded by competing claims on both sides, one persistent mystery has been the identity and affiliations of the militiamen, who have pressed the confrontation between Russia and the West into its latest bitter phase.

Moscow says they are Ukrainians and not part of the Russian armed forces, as the so-called green men in Crimea turned out to be.

Western officials and the Ukrainian government insist that Russians have led, organized and equipped the fighters.

A deeper look at the 12th Company — during more than a week of visiting its checkpoints, interviewing its fighters and observing them in action against a Ukrainian military advance here on Friday — shows that in its case neither portrayal captures the full story.

The rebels of the 12th Company appear to be Ukrainians but, like many in the region, have deep ties to and affinity for Russia. They are veterans of the Soviet, Ukrainian or Russian Armies, and some have families on the other side of the border. Theirs is a tangled mix of identities and loyalties.

Further complicating the picture, while the fighters share a passionate distrust of Ukraine’s government and the Western powers that support it, they disagree among themselves about their ultimate goals. They argue about whether Ukraine should redistribute power via greater federalization or whether the region should be annexed by Russia, and they harbor different views about which side might claim Kiev, the capital, and even about where the border of a divided Ukraine might lie.

Yuri speaks with ambivalence about the possibility of Russian annexation, even as Russia’s tri-colored flag fluttered beside the porch where he directed his troops.

He says he participated in the seizure of Ukraine’s intelligence service building in Donetsk on April 7 and led the capture of this city’s police building five days later, twin operations that helped establish the militia’s foothold. Videos and photographs of the second attack confirm his story.

Continue reading the main storyVideo


Throughout the week, as Ukrainian soldiers sometimes pressed closer, he chuckled at the claims by officials in Kiev and the West that his operations had been guided by Russian military intelligence officers.

There is no Russian master, he said. “We have no Muscovites here,” he said. “I have experience enough.”

That experience, he and his fighters say, includes four years as a Soviet small-unit commander in Kandahar, Afghanistan, in the 1980s.

The 119 fighters he said he leads, who appear to range in age from their 20s to their 50s, all speak of prior service in Soviet or Ukrainian infantry, airborne, special forces or air-defense units.

One, Kostya, served in the post-Soviet Russian Army, where he was a paratrooper. But he too claimed Ukrainian citizenship, which he said he received two years ago after moving to the Donetsk region in 1997 to live near his mother.

Two others said they were from outside eastern Ukraine, one from Odessa, in the south, and the other from Dnipropetrovsk, in the center.

For now, the 12th Company forms part of the front lines in Slovyansk, where its fighters stand at barricades facing the Ukrainian military, with whom the militia has clashed several times.

The company’s members wear masks on patrols, which crisscross the city around the clock.

They show signs of discipline, including organizing rotating watches at checkpoints, frequently cleaning their weapons and abstaining from alcohol.

And they claim to have a sprawling network of informers who warn them of Ukrainian military actions as they begin.


All spoke of disgust with the interim authorities in Kiev, who came to power after chasing President Viktor F. Yanukovych from office in February.

They bristled at any suggestion that their seizure of government buildings was wrong. Pro-Western protesters in Kiev have held government buildings and the city’s main square since last fall, they said.

“Why did America support those acts, but is in opposition to ours?” said Maksim, the young former paratrooper who organized Yuri’s snipers by the bridge. “These are the contradictions of the West.”

Maksim, like many others, speaks of what he sees as unbreakable cultural, economic and religious ties to Russia and his ideal of a greater Slavic world, which he says is threatened from outside.

The threats, the fighters said, were made clear by a parliamentary proposal in February by the interim authorities in Kiev that would have stripped Russian of its status as an official language in eastern Ukraine. The proposal was vetoed by the interim president, but in the fighters’ view the episode signaled an official cultural assault.

“That was a turning point,” said Maksim, adjusting a knife tucked against his chest in a black vest.

Several fighters shook their heads at the idea that they had been paid by Russia, by oligarchs or by anybody else.

“This is not a job,” said one fighter, Dmitry. “It is a service.”

Moreover, if Russia’s intelligence services had been helping them, they said, they would have new weapons, not the dated arms visible at their checkpoints and stored in the base where they sleep. During the fighting on Friday, two of the fighters carried hunting shotguns, and the heaviest visible weapon was a sole rocket-propelled grenade.

Much of their stock was identical to the weapons seen in the hands of Ukrainian soldiers and Interior Ministry special forces troops at government positions outside the city. These included 9-millimeter Makarov pistols, Kalashnikov assault rifles and a few Dragunov sniper rifles, RPK light machine guns and portable antitank rockets, including some with production stamps from the 1980s and early 1990s.


Many of the weapons show signs of long service. One, an RPG-7 launcher, looked clean and fresh. The fighters said it had been purchased from Ukrainian soldiers for $2,000, along with 12 high-explosive projectiles.

Militia members said their weapons had either been taken from seized police buildings and a column of captured Ukrainian armored vehicles, or bought from corrupt Ukrainian soldiers.


There was no clear Russian link in the 12th Company’s arsenal, but it was not possible to confirm the rebels’ descriptions of the sources of their money and equipment.

There were, however, indicators of local support.

One afternoon, a crowd labored to build a barricade and a bunker beside a bridge over a canal to the city’s west.

At the 12th Company’s main base, the home of Tanya and her husband, Lev, residents visited to donate food: homemade pastries, slabs of salted pork fat, a vat of borscht, bags of fresh green onions, jars of pickled vegetables and fruits.

“To the guys in Kiev, we are separatists and terrorists,” Yuri said. “But to the people here, we are defenders and protectors.”

Tanya, 60, who offered to feed the rebels after her son joined them last month, has assumed the role of company cook. She keeps the table behind the house stacked with food and admonishes the men to eat more whenever they leave bowls of borscht unfinished.

The couple’s garage has become a barracks; a shed is now an armory. Camouflage hangs on lines strung from cherry trees.

The militia claims to have mostly good relations with the local police, who have done little to stop them. Many police officers still patrol in rebel territory, accepting the militia’s authority while directing traffic or investigating accidents.

Photo
Residents of Slovyansk paying their respects at a memorial to four pro-Russian demonstrators. Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times
Where these militiamen and their backers are trying to steer Ukraine remains a matter of dispute even among the men wearing masks.

In the 12th Company, some hope the eastern provinces can establish autonomy within a federalized Ukraine. Others speak of dividing the nation in two, with much of it joining Russia.

Asked whether Ukraine should remain one nation, Sergey, a veteran of the Soviet air-defense service, said, “Sure, why not?”

“No, no, no,” interjected Dmitry, a younger fighter. “What kind of united Ukraine could there be?”

Later, another fighter, Aleksey, agreed. “In western Ukraine, they showed their faces: Nazis, fascist,” he said. “They destroyed monuments to Lenin, attacked our history. Living on one land with them is senseless for us.”

Then came the matter of details, where might a new border be, and which side should keep Kiev. “Let Kiev remain there in the west,” said Sanya, a huge man with a shaved head who carried a Dragunov sniper rifle. “It’s not a problem in principle.”

“No, all the way to Kiev!” Dmitry said.

Alexey proposed a border along the Dnieper, the river that runs through Kiev.


“Fine, along the Dnieper,” Dmitry said. “Left bank is theirs, right bank is ours.”

Whatever the final shape, Yuri said later, Ukraine’s interim government must allow a vote or face civil war.

“Either a sea of blood and corpses, or a referendum,” he said. “There is no third way.”
RT ran a spun on this.
No Russians among Slavyansk self-defense forces – NYT reporters
Published time: May 04, 2014 20:47 Get short URL
Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine May 2, 2014. (Reuters / Marko Djurica)Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine May 2, 2014. (Reuters / Marko Djurica)
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Self-defense forces in the anti-Kiev stronghold of Slavyansk are Ukrainians, not Russians, who distrust the new regime and the Western powers that support it, New York Times reporters have discovered. The forces also said they are not being paid to fight.

Two New York Times reporters have spent a week in the city of Slavyansk in eastern Ukraine, talking to members of the self-defense forces. The journalists visited self-defense checkpoints and observed the forces as they battled Ukrainian troops amid a military assault on the city on Friday.

The resistance fighters of the 12th Company, part of the People’s Self-Defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, deny claims made by Kiev and its Western sponsors that Russia or private tycoons are paying them to fight.

“This is not a job,” one of the activists, Dmitry told the NYT reporters. “It is a service.”

Armed with dated weapons, the self-defense activists said they would have bought new weapons if they had financial support. The NYT journalists reported seeing weapons from the 1980s and 1990s in checkpoints and warehouses.


The eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk on April 14, 2014. (AFP Photo / Anatoly Stepanov)The eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk on April 14, 2014. (AFP Photo / Anatoly Stepanov)

The activists explained that they purchased some of their weaponry from corrupt Ukrainian soldiers, while taking others from seized police buildings or confiscating them from captured Ukrainian armored vehicles.

“Much of their stock was identical to the weapons seen in the hands of Ukrainian soldiers and Interior Ministry Special Forces troops at government positions outside the city,” the NYT reporters said in an article published on Saturday.

“These included 9-millimeter Makarov pistols, Kalashnikov assault rifles, and a few Dragunov sniper rifles, RPK light machine guns and portable antitank rockets, including some with production stamps from the 1980s and early 1990s.”

The head of Slavyansk self-defense, Yury, also chuckled at claims made by Kiev authorities and the West that Russians are fighting side by side with them.

“We have no Muscovites here,” Yury told the journalists. “I have experience enough.”

Many of the Company’s 119 members, who range in age from their 20s to their 50s, have served in the Soviet or Ukrainian infantry, airborne, special forces, or air-defense units, the reporters said. Yury, in his mid 50s, noted that his experience includes four years as a Soviet small-unit commander in Kandahar, Afghanistan in the 1980s.

“There was no clear Russian link in the 12th Company’s arsenal,” the reporters said.

Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine, April 20, 2014. (Reuters / Gleb Garanich)Kramatorsk, in eastern Ukraine, April 20, 2014. (Reuters / Gleb Garanich)

While visiting checkpoints for more than a week, the NYT reporters said they saw much support for the self-defense forces from local residents, who primary provided the activists with food.

“To the guys in Kiev, we are separatists and terrorists,” Yury said. “But to the people here, we are defenders and protectors.”

The people of eastern Ukraine, who show “passionate distrust” of the coup-appointed authorities, felt threatened after Kiev proposed to strip the Russian language – which most of the region's population speaks – of its official status in February.

“That was the turning point,” said Maksim, one of the Slavyansk activists.

For Ukrainians in the east, many of whom have close ties with Russia and families across the border, the move was a “cultural assault.”

“All spoke of disgust with the interim authorities in Kiev,” the NYT reporters noted in their article.

The eastern Ukrainians have made up their minds, Yury told the journalists, adding that they are demanding a referendum and will go to war in the case of a refusal. He added that people in the region are puzzled by the West's support of the coup in Kiev and blatant disregard for eastern Ukrainians' opinions and rights.

“Why did America support those acts, but is in opposition to ours?” Maksim, a young former paratrooper asked. “These are the contradictions of the West.”
 

MwRYum

Major
Went by those stories, the rebels are no simple local triggerman, many of whom have prior military service (if not actual battle experience), disciplined and with a sense of purpose. To overcome such men will need a lot of firepower, or very long and harsh encirclement...yet it's past winter now and General Frost is on His annual leave.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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It is impossible to ignore the self defeating ineptitude of the Kiev Interim Government in these matters.

It was evident from the earliest days of the crisis that rebel militant groups in the East were being formed by either defecting current military and police personnel, plus being augmented by older men with significant military service experience, dating back as far the final years of the Soviet Union. These were facts obvious to those who bothered to research the situation at anything deeper than the most superficial and also obvious to vast majority of ethnic Russians or Russian speakers in Ukraine itself.

When Kiev has maintained its constant position (mainly for external consumption) about the rebels being composed of and led by "Little Green Men" from Russia, it has been seen by the Russian populations as another attempt to de-legitimise them as citizens, there concerns, language and culture. Nothing is more guaranteed to stir up an otherwise neutral majority and push them into the rebel camp and this is precisely what we are seeing now in many parts of the country.

Likewise, when Yatsenyuk criticised the Odessa police yesterday, the results were equally predictable, with officers; on hearing the news, throwing down their shields on the spot and leaving their posts. I have read that these guys earn $160 a month and clearly they do not think it enough to warrant risking their lives intervening between the two warring camps and then be thanked by nobody.

These are simply two symptoms of the main underling problem that Kiev seems unable to understand. Namely the more you push with your military solution to this problem, the more you simply polarise and radicalise the general population.
 

SampanViking

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you took it well, which is good for me, as you could've banned me :)



I'm not going to argue any of your points related to the May 2nd Odessa events, because only facts may be presented in this thread -- if I understood correctly the MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS given by Jeff yesterday -- and I don't have facts which wouldn't be disputed by the other side of the conflict (maybe except of the body count: 46), despite spending several hours of yesterday by going over Ukrainian and Russian servers (and some European, which regurgitated). And besides, I don't know much about Ukraine :) http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mem...s-views-photos-videos-85-6796.html#post280263

But wait, there's one thing:


I regularly go to some pub where a guy, who is Czech/Russian, also comes and he's been to Odessa so I ask him (most probably tomorrow) if there's such a thing as "Russian/Ukrainians neighborhood" there, let you know.

There is an article on the BBC website which is actually quite informative (sorry nearly chocked as I wrote that) regarding the events on Friday in Odessa. It does confirm some of the points that I raised and frustratingly passes swiftly over other areas without much detail.
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It does confirm the make up of the Pro-Unity marchers and it does confirm that the march left the Cathedral Sq and headed quite deliberately for the tented camp by the Trades Union House. It also gives us the names of specific streets that the marchers came down and it would be useful to ask your friend if these road names have any sectarian or otherwise communal significance in the City. I have tried to find the info online, but have not found anything remotely useful.

Reading the article, the parallels with the early days in the 60's, of the troubles in Ulster are quite apparent. I also read that Odessa has been a calm and cosmopolitan city until the crisis, so it is possible that few previously have worried about ethnic identity and so obvious lines of communal demarcation do not exist. I suspect this is likely to change and is one of the first casualties of sectarian conflict.

I am going to add a couple of video's from the Marching Season in Northern Ireland last year. I just want you all to see, exactly what sectarianism looks like. Remember also that this in a strong state, with a very well equipped police force, which has the benefits of the experience of thirty years of "troubles" and now nearly twenty years of peace process.

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