09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[OppositeDay]

When did we get those hints?
The electric motor was attributed to use for 09V as the true next generation nuclear submarine

I read it from a Zhihu answer about Ma Weiming written by an electric engineer working on medium/high voltage DC power transmission (can't link it from my PC, search for 舌战群诸葛 on Zhihu). The answer was written in 2020 and he claimed Ma's next-gen electric motor would be on whatever that's being built in Huludao. He seems well connected to the industry and knows his stuff. At least it showed that the timeline seemed plausible to him (i.e. from what he had heard the new motor was mature enough to be integrated to a submarine being built in 2020).

There was never an indication that a shaftless pumpjet was being developed for nuclear submarine purposes.
That was an incorrect interpretation of a shaftless propeller being developed shown in the same television program when Ma stated the new electric motor/drive would be applied for the next gen nuclear submarine.

But the shaftless propeller itself was never stated as being intended for a nuclear submarine.

Yeah a shaftless pump-jet for SSN seemed very optimistic to me and what's why I said if it's true 09V would be years and years down the road.

I haven't watched Ma's interview, however my understanding is that what's really difficult about such a pump-jet is building a powerful enough bearingless motor. If the motor is powerful enough to drive a propeller then it's probably on the ballpark of being powerful enough to drive a pump-jet. Also bearingless motors are applied mostly in high speed systems. Pump-jets are high rpm but propellers are certainly not (and using gears would negate all advantages of a bearingless motor) . I just don't see why one would want to take the electric motor from a shaftless pump-jet and use it with a propeller.

 

[Blitzo]

I read it from a Zhihu answer about Ma Weiming written by an electric engineer working on medium/high voltage DC power transmission (can't link it from my PC, search for 舌战群诸葛 on Zhihu). The answer was written in 2020 and he claimed Ma's next-gen electric motor would be on whatever that's being built in Huludao. He seems well connected to the industry and knows his stuff. At least it showed that the timeline seemed plausible to him (i.e. from what he had heard the new motor was mature enough to be integrated to a submarine being built in 2020).



Yeah a shaftless pump-jet for SSN seemed very optimistic to me and what's why I said if it's true 09V would be years and years down the road.

I haven't watched Ma's interview, however my understanding is that what's really difficult about such a pump-jet is building a powerful enough bearingless motor. If the motor is powerful enough to drive a propeller then it's probably on the ballpark of being powerful enough to drive a pump-jet. Also bearingless motors are applied mostly in high speed systems. Pump-jets are high rpm but propellers are certainly not (and using gears would negate all advantages of a bearingless motor) . I just don't see why one would want to take the electric motor from a shaftless pump-jet and use it with a propeller.

So, my argument is that neither of those original claims were correct.

1. the next generation electric motor that Ma said would be applied on the next generation nuclear submarine would likely not be for 09IIIB, but rather for 09V. Given the timelines of when Ma made the statement on CCTV, and given when 09IIIB and 09V would've been along in development cycles at that time, it is very unlikely that it would v for 09IIIB.

2. There was never any statement from Ma that any sort of shaftless propeller/rimdrive would be applied on a nuclear submarine to begin with.


I remember in 2017 when it first came out and people were getting over excited about the idea of a rimdrive, but he had said no such thing.


Heck back when I still had my website, I even wrote an article about it because people were getting it so wrong, and it beguiles me to see that the effects persist to this day.

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[OppositeDay]

So, my argument is that neither of those original claims were correct.

1. the next generation electric motor that Ma said would be applied on the next generation nuclear submarine would likely not be for 09IIIB, but rather for 09V. Given the timelines of when Ma made the statement on CCTV, and given when 09IIIB and 09V would've been along in development cycles at that time, it is very unlikely that it would v for 09IIIB.

2. There was never any statement from Ma that any sort of shaftless propeller/rimdrive would be applied on a nuclear submarine to begin with.


I remember in 2017 when it first came out and people were getting over excited about the idea of a rimdrive, but he had said no such thing.


Heck back when I still had my website, I even wrote an article about it because people were getting it so wrong, and it beguiles me to see that the effects persist to this day.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I see. Let's forget about shaftless pump-jet then. Since you seem to be in a myth-busting mood, let me ask if there's any truth to the often-repeated claim that Chinese nuclear submarines, like French ones, have always used turbo-electric propulsion? I was under the impression that Type 09IIIA was already using an electric motor so replacing the old motor with a new one would be pretty straightforward.

 

[Maikeru]

As I understand it (on the basis of stuff I've read here and elsewhere on the internet), in terms of quietness:

093 = Victor III
093A = 688I
093B = early Virginias

Is that reasonable?

 

[tphuang]

As I understand it (on the basis of stuff I've read here and elsewhere on the internet), in terms of quietness:

093 = Victor III
093A = 688I
093B = early Virginias

Is that reasonable?

Lol, absolutely not. 093 is basically at around the same noise level as the last 2 091s. Maybe a little quieter. The main improvement is in reactor safety and higher speed. It was so loud that they stopped at 2 and waited several years before coming out with 093a. Which is most likely still noisier than Victor 3.

The problem is that 093 reactor hull is too small. 093b imo would be likely around Victor 3 in noise level since they are around the same size.

Currently, the quiet nuclear subs that china have are the most recently commissioned 094a.

Based on shilao podcast, 093b should be considered guodu class. 095 will be a lot larger and likely to skip a generation (think h6k to h20). Even with that, it's unlikely to fully catch up with the latest usn sub. So imo, 095 is likely to be china's first quiet nuclear subs and probably around the early Virginia class in stealth.

 

[Maikeru]

Lol, absolutely not. 093 is basically at around the same noise level as the last 2 091s. Maybe a little quieter. The main improvement is in reactor safety and higher speed. It was so loud that they stopped at 2 and waited several years before coming out with 093a. Which is most likely still noisier than Victor 3.

The problem is that 093 reactor hull is too small. 093b imo would be likely around Victor 3 in noise level since they are around the same size.

Currently, the quiet nuclear subs that china have are the most recently commissioned 094a.

Based on shilao podcast, 093b should be considered guodu class. 095 will be a lot larger and likely to skip a generation (think h6k to h20). Even with that, it's unlikely to fully catch up with the latest usn sub. So imo, 095 is likely to be china's first quiet nuclear subs and probably around the early Virginia class in stealth.

Well if 095 is going to be a lot larger than 093 then that means we're looking at a recently launched 093B.

 

[tphuang]

Well if 095 is going to be a lot larger than 093 then that means we're looking at a recently launched 093B.

095 itself can be larger than 093 by just being single hull or hybrid vs double hull. The issue is how much space inside the pressure hull. I do think 095 at minimum should be longer than 093 in order to carry a vls section of at least 12 tubes. The new submarine we saw appears to be about as long and wide as 093a. So I would assume it is just 093b.

 

[drowingfish]

any idea when 095 will be in production roughly?

095 itself can be larger than 093 by just being single hull or hybrid vs double hull. The issue is how much space inside the pressure hull. I do think 095 at minimum should be longer than 093 in order to carry a vls section of at least 12 tubes. The new submarine we saw appears to be about as long and wide as 093a. So I would assume it is just 093b.

 

[Blitzo]

I see. Let's forget about shaftless pump-jet then. Since you seem to be in a myth-busting mood,

I'm not so my in a myth busting mood -- rather that I have been very skeptical to the notion that the rimdrive for nuclear submarines was ever a thing.

let me ask if there's any truth to the often-repeated claim that Chinese nuclear submarines, like French ones, have always used turbo-electric propulsion? I was under the impression that Type 09IIIA was already using an electric motor so replacing the old motor with a new one would be pretty straightforward.

I personally have never seen that claim before.

I expect 09V to be the first PLAN nuclear sub to use turbo electric propulsion.

 

[tphuang]

any idea when 095 will be in production roughly?

I'm personally expecting near the end of this decade. Which is why I wrote on the ASW thread that I think the nuclear sub imbalance will get better by 2030.