SinoSoldier
Colonel
This is a satellite photo of the improved 094, and below it is HSH diagram.
09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread
- Thread starter SinoSoldier
- Start date
Schumacher
Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
So one side is investing billions to build & deploy these 094s while on the other side, we have cheap talks.
So one side is investing billions to build & deploy these 094s while on the other side, we have cheap talks.
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
So, I would not call it, "cheap talk."
Fact is, the US has 14 SSBNs that are far quieter and more capable than the 3-4 SSBNs China has at this point. The US also has a force of 53 nuclear attack submarines, all of which are quieter and more capable than the 8 or so the PLAN has at this point.
So, while I may not agree with some of what was said by this author (for example the Chinese SSBNs do not have to venture far at all from their base to be able to pose a threat to US large cities, which would make it far more difficult for a US sub or other force to get at them), right now, and for the foreseeable future, the US will be capable of finding and destroying all of the Chinese SSBNs and SSNs if they venture out very far into the Pacific Ocean.
But the PLAN is really just getting started in terms of making new boats and introducing new capabilities. So, as time goes on, they will close the gap.
Uh...the point the man was making is the result of the US investing probably hundreds of billions in its submarine warfare capabilities and force.So one side is investing billions to build & deploy these 094s while on the other side, we have cheap talks.
So, I would not call it, "cheap talk."
Fact is, the US has 14 SSBNs that are far quieter and more capable than the 3-4 SSBNs China has at this point. The US also has a force of 53 nuclear attack submarines, all of which are quieter and more capable than the 8 or so the PLAN has at this point.
So, while I may not agree with some of what was said by this author (for example the Chinese SSBNs do not have to venture far at all from their base to be able to pose a threat to US large cities, which would make it far more difficult for a US sub or other force to get at them), right now, and for the foreseeable future, the US will be capable of finding and destroying all of the Chinese SSBNs and SSNs if they venture out very far into the Pacific Ocean.
But the PLAN is really just getting started in terms of making new boats and introducing new capabilities. So, as time goes on, they will close the gap.
Schumacher
Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
I don't doubt US spends billions on their sub capabilities & they have overall lead over China in nuke subs, that's not what I referred to when I said 'cheap talks'.
I was referring to the article implying USN can easily & with certainty neutralize the 094s which would then imply PLAN are idiots to invest billions in them. Anyone who call PLAN, or any other major navies for that matter, idiots, I'll call them idiots or making cheap talks.
And indications are PLAN are satisfied & are deploying them.
Ultimately, only a war or something close to one can determine who's right. But from public knowledge so far, the 094s will likely have high degree of effectiveness at what they're designed to do ie give China a retaliatory nuke strike. Whether they need to go out into the middle of the Pacific or somewhere nearer to home to achieve this is another matter.
I don't doubt US spends billions on their sub capabilities & they have overall lead over China in nuke subs, that's not what I referred to when I said 'cheap talks'.
I was referring to the article implying USN can easily & with certainty neutralize the 094s which would then imply PLAN are idiots to invest billions in them. Anyone who call PLAN, or any other major navies for that matter, idiots, I'll call them idiots or making cheap talks.
And indications are PLAN are satisfied & are deploying them.
Ultimately, only a war or something close to one can determine who's right. But from public knowledge so far, the 094s will likely have high degree of effectiveness at what they're designed to do ie give China a retaliatory nuke strike. Whether they need to go out into the middle of the Pacific or somewhere nearer to home to achieve this is another matter.
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
The article is wrong in implying that the Type 094s will be wholly ineffective because the range of their missiles does give them some retaliatory capability from even very close in to the Chinese shore
But it is also right because the Type 094 is also very much limited by the US lead and capabilities should they try and obtain their full effectiveness by getting out into the blue water where they could hit most of the US. The Admiral correctly points out that at this point, if they try that, they are going to be tagged, tailed, and shadowed by wolves of the deep that can destroy them.
That is what the article and the Admiral are referring to. So their effectiveness has been significantly limited.
The only way the Chinese will overcome this is to:
1) Design longer range missiles to shoot from their subs so they can make their bastion the China Sea, or as Chuck suggested, some large inlet off of it where they can threaten the entire US.
2) Design better subs that are quiet enough to give them the chance of evading the US technological lead and get to the blue water.
Clearly, the PLAN understands this. They are not serial building the Type 094s...they are already building the Type 096 subs in an effort to do that very thing, which lends credence to what the admiral is saying.
Actually, that is the whole matter.
The article is wrong in implying that the Type 094s will be wholly ineffective because the range of their missiles does give them some retaliatory capability from even very close in to the Chinese shore
But it is also right because the Type 094 is also very much limited by the US lead and capabilities should they try and obtain their full effectiveness by getting out into the blue water where they could hit most of the US. The Admiral correctly points out that at this point, if they try that, they are going to be tagged, tailed, and shadowed by wolves of the deep that can destroy them.
That is what the article and the Admiral are referring to. So their effectiveness has been significantly limited.
The only way the Chinese will overcome this is to:
1) Design longer range missiles to shoot from their subs so they can make their bastion the China Sea, or as Chuck suggested, some large inlet off of it where they can threaten the entire US.
2) Design better subs that are quiet enough to give them the chance of evading the US technological lead and get to the blue water.
Clearly, the PLAN understands this. They are not serial building the Type 094s...they are already building the Type 096 subs in an effort to do that very thing, which lends credence to what the admiral is saying.
Schumacher
Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
You always invest in newer stuffs, if you have the money, especially PLA so building 096 hardly lends credence to what the admiral is saying.
How do you know they're not or have not serial build the 094 ? They build several & operating them, you don't need many SSBN anyway. Indications are PLAN are satisfied with 094 & JL2.
If 094 can hit US, then USN needs to find them wherever they are, China Sea or Pacific. If they can't, then it's time to admit you need to invest more so that you can or make the calculation it's ok to give up huge chunks of your population.
And even the talk that USN can somehow get 094s out in the Pacific with ease is just talk for now.
Saying we're happy because we're still more advanced even if the gap is not large enough for you to prevent the opponent from doing their job is to fall into the trap of tech infatuation.
The 2 main reasons armed forces do this is not wanting to admit your opponents have made significant progress due to ego and to play mind game to undermine the other side.
At the end of the day, you invest in new tech to achieve your goals, hopefully not just to tell the world you have better tech.
You always invest in newer stuffs, if you have the money, especially PLA so building 096 hardly lends credence to what the admiral is saying.
How do you know they're not or have not serial build the 094 ? They build several & operating them, you don't need many SSBN anyway. Indications are PLAN are satisfied with 094 & JL2.
If 094 can hit US, then USN needs to find them wherever they are, China Sea or Pacific. If they can't, then it's time to admit you need to invest more so that you can or make the calculation it's ok to give up huge chunks of your population.
And even the talk that USN can somehow get 094s out in the Pacific with ease is just talk for now.
Saying we're happy because we're still more advanced even if the gap is not large enough for you to prevent the opponent from doing their job is to fall into the trap of tech infatuation.
The 2 main reasons armed forces do this is not wanting to admit your opponents have made significant progress due to ego and to play mind game to undermine the other side.
At the end of the day, you invest in new tech to achieve your goals, hopefully not just to tell the world you have better tech.
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
And here is the truth of the matter.
The US commissioned the first Ohio class SSBN in 1981. They have been recognized as the best in class ever since...for 30+ years. 18 were built. 4 were converted to SSGN.
The PLAN built a single vessel, then more recently built a few Type 094 and are now building the Type 096, ergo the PLAN did not serial build the Type 094s and since they are building the Type 096 so soon...clearly they are improving on it.
This lends credence to the Admiral's claim...otherwise there would be no need to build the newer SSBN so soon.
As I said, the PLAN understands their own need to rapidly improve their capabilities. it is self evident.
These weapons are generally considered a retaliatory deterent capability to ensure that no one commits a devastating 1st strike. The Type 094 are not capable of doing any kind of devastating 1st strike...or even a devastating 2nd strike. Of course the US would try and find them...but if they are forced to launch from close into shore, that is going to be very difficult to do no matter who you are.
If the US's technological lead is able to limit their capability, then that is a very strong start.
If the Chinese build a quiet enough sub, or a long enough range missile to fire from them so they can reach all of the US from close in to shore or their harbor, then the US must depend on its own deterrent. Which they did with Russia for many years.
But the Chinese have not done that yet.
No. it's not. The Chinese know it themselves.
No, it's simply the truth. The US is advancing its submarine capabilities constantly and steadily.
That's a very convienent excuse when you are behind in tech...but it does not change the truth of the matter.
And here is the truth of the matter.
The US commissioned the first Ohio class SSBN in 1981. They have been recognized as the best in class ever since...for 30+ years. 18 were built. 4 were converted to SSGN.
The PLAN built a single vessel, then more recently built a few Type 094 and are now building the Type 096, ergo the PLAN did not serial build the Type 094s and since they are building the Type 096 so soon...clearly they are improving on it.
This lends credence to the Admiral's claim...otherwise there would be no need to build the newer SSBN so soon.
As I said, the PLAN understands their own need to rapidly improve their capabilities. it is self evident.
These weapons are generally considered a retaliatory deterent capability to ensure that no one commits a devastating 1st strike. The Type 094 are not capable of doing any kind of devastating 1st strike...or even a devastating 2nd strike. Of course the US would try and find them...but if they are forced to launch from close into shore, that is going to be very difficult to do no matter who you are.
If the US's technological lead is able to limit their capability, then that is a very strong start.
If the Chinese build a quiet enough sub, or a long enough range missile to fire from them so they can reach all of the US from close in to shore or their harbor, then the US must depend on its own deterrent. Which they did with Russia for many years.
But the Chinese have not done that yet.
Schumacher
Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
I obviously agree 094 is a credible nuke deterrence that can strike US soil, which is what PLA needs it to be. That's all my point.
As to how noisy it is & which part of the ocean it operates, I'll leave it to others to discuss which I believe will quickly degenerate into a case of the blind leading the blind.
I obviously agree 094 is a credible nuke deterrence that can strike US soil, which is what PLA needs it to be. That's all my point.
As to how noisy it is & which part of the ocean it operates, I'll leave it to others to discuss which I believe will quickly degenerate into a case of the blind leading the blind.
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II
It would be like me saying that all the talk the great capabilities of the Type 052Ds, the coming Type 095s, the advances in PLAN naval aviation, etc., etc. is all cheap talk because the US has clearly invested a lot more money (a LOT more) in their existing systems.
The Chinese are investing so much money in their succeeding generations of nuclear submarines so quickly precisely because they are playing catch up...and there is nothing wrong with that.
But it is clear that we simply are not going to agree on this. Schade, so ist das Leben.
I have stated clearly that the Type 094 can fulfill a nuclear deterrent role, albeit a limited one because of the range of their missiles. You seem to want to believe that the Type 094 can operate with impunity...they can't, not in the open sea.
The Admiral, as I have already stated, was not correct in stating that the Type 094 is not a credible threat. As I have stated...they are. But he is correct in saying that the US Navy could find them...and as I stated, I believe he means in the open water. Of course he is leaving other things unsaid. Of course he is not telling "everything," and he is using his words to imply some sense of invulnerability. But he knows the whole set of facts, and all I have been doing here is trying to get all of those on the table.
As to somehow "proving," this to you on a public forum...LOL! Schumacher, the only way to give you absolute proof, is for the US to video them sinking or finding a Type 094 in the open sea, and then publishing it. They are simply not going to do that for your or my or anyone else's public benefit. To ask for, or expect such a revelation is ludicrous itself.
So, you go ahead and believe what you want....that's your choice.
But the fact is, the Chinese are definitely advancing. And this is because the Chinese themselves, have recently commented on the deficiencies of their own designs...they know they need to catch up, so they are building new designs that help them do so. That's what the Type 052D, the Type 096, the Type 095, and eventually the Type 055 (or whatever its designation actually is) are all about. As they did with the Type 054A FFG design, when they feel they have established some sense of parity, they will settle in and keep a strong design for a good length of time. That's the cheapest, and will show their true maturity. Not numerous succeeding designs...which cost a lot more and never allow them to benefit from the substantial economies of scale and logistical savings.
The numerous succeeding designs in a relative short period makes it clear that in those areas, the PLAN is involved in a very credible and well thought out effort to catch up, which is why they are moving on from the Type 094 so soon. They are noisy...meaning they are easy to find in the open ocean.
Just the same, the PLAN has accomplished a LOT in the last ten years in closing a 25+ year gap that existed. I have a lot of respect for what they have done, and are doing, and make no bones about stating it. At the same time, I do not kid myself or anyone else about obvious facts.
Right now, the US quieting technology, their propulsion technology, and their weapons technology are still significantly advanced over the Chinese in submarine operations. That's a simple as it can be stated. But the Chinese are rapidly closing that gap.
Who knows, perhaps the Type 095 and Type 096 will make great strides in that effort.
Time will tell. Tschussla.
Well, Schumacher, with the logic you are using here, that's all you are likely going to see.
It would be like me saying that all the talk the great capabilities of the Type 052Ds, the coming Type 095s, the advances in PLAN naval aviation, etc., etc. is all cheap talk because the US has clearly invested a lot more money (a LOT more) in their existing systems.
The Chinese are investing so much money in their succeeding generations of nuclear submarines so quickly precisely because they are playing catch up...and there is nothing wrong with that.
But it is clear that we simply are not going to agree on this. Schade, so ist das Leben.
I have stated clearly that the Type 094 can fulfill a nuclear deterrent role, albeit a limited one because of the range of their missiles. You seem to want to believe that the Type 094 can operate with impunity...they can't, not in the open sea.
The Admiral, as I have already stated, was not correct in stating that the Type 094 is not a credible threat. As I have stated...they are. But he is correct in saying that the US Navy could find them...and as I stated, I believe he means in the open water. Of course he is leaving other things unsaid. Of course he is not telling "everything," and he is using his words to imply some sense of invulnerability. But he knows the whole set of facts, and all I have been doing here is trying to get all of those on the table.
As to somehow "proving," this to you on a public forum...LOL! Schumacher, the only way to give you absolute proof, is for the US to video them sinking or finding a Type 094 in the open sea, and then publishing it. They are simply not going to do that for your or my or anyone else's public benefit. To ask for, or expect such a revelation is ludicrous itself.
So, you go ahead and believe what you want....that's your choice.
But the fact is, the Chinese are definitely advancing. And this is because the Chinese themselves, have recently commented on the deficiencies of their own designs...they know they need to catch up, so they are building new designs that help them do so. That's what the Type 052D, the Type 096, the Type 095, and eventually the Type 055 (or whatever its designation actually is) are all about. As they did with the Type 054A FFG design, when they feel they have established some sense of parity, they will settle in and keep a strong design for a good length of time. That's the cheapest, and will show their true maturity. Not numerous succeeding designs...which cost a lot more and never allow them to benefit from the substantial economies of scale and logistical savings.
The numerous succeeding designs in a relative short period makes it clear that in those areas, the PLAN is involved in a very credible and well thought out effort to catch up, which is why they are moving on from the Type 094 so soon. They are noisy...meaning they are easy to find in the open ocean.
Just the same, the PLAN has accomplished a LOT in the last ten years in closing a 25+ year gap that existed. I have a lot of respect for what they have done, and are doing, and make no bones about stating it. At the same time, I do not kid myself or anyone else about obvious facts.
Right now, the US quieting technology, their propulsion technology, and their weapons technology are still significantly advanced over the Chinese in submarine operations. That's a simple as it can be stated. But the Chinese are rapidly closing that gap.
Who knows, perhaps the Type 095 and Type 096 will make great strides in that effort.
Time will tell. Tschussla.
Last edited: