Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by A Bar Brother, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. Anlsvrthng
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    Anlsvrthng Senior Member
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    Start to think in Russian military doctrine, and the role of Su-57 in it.

    The Russian military budget has three elements .
    priority 1 Self defence and strategic nuclear systems
    Including strategic ICBMs and SLBMs , the carriers ( Borei class) , sensor systems ( NEBO radar family, Arctic sensor network ) , SAM systems, modernisation of fighters MBTs, missile systems , helicopters.​
    Priority 2 dual use systems and power projection
    Yassen class, surface ships, transport planes, refuelling planes ​
    Priority 3, cost imposing systems.
    Poseidon, Bulsevik ( that nuclear powered missile) , T-14 MBT , Zircon, manoeuvrable RVs and Su-57


    The priority 1 items receive the best part of the budget, they have strict schedule, and if they late then receive extra budget, they try to make the slips as small as possible.

    Now, the priority 3 items receive a small portion of budget, if priority 1 has any extra budget requirement then the money withdrawn from Priority 3 .
    There is no extra money spent on those programs, because the only reason of the existence of them is to force any adversary to spend way more money ( preferable 1:10) than the cost of the system. Spending more than budgeted onto them defeating the exact reason of they existence.

    The Su-57 exist because the Russian military mathematicians calculated that every 1 % of military budget spent onto Su-57 has to be matched by 10% of budget spend by the USA/France / UK /China ect. onto VHF,S band radars, integrated radar systems, multi sensor fighter jets, new missiles and SAMs and so on. Same game like Reagan's star wars program.

    So, if the 170 billion rouble will be insufficient then they will just lengthen the procurement time , or decrease the number of planes , or anything else that doesn't require to touch the priority 1 and 2 items.

    And this is the reason why Turkey need so badly a multi spectra SAM system.
    USA don't want to sell anything that restrict the usability of stealth planes (and hasn't got usable system at the moment) , and Turkey will face the USA , Israel and Russia threat (maybe Saudi, or even Iran ) , that can't be seen by X band radars.
    So, for them the S400 become prioirty 1, the F35 priority 3(maybe 2 )
     
  2. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Senior Member
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    I see a lot of mistaken beliefs here.

    Russia does not have 12x Su-57s. Russia has 10x flying prototypes which are used for testing various features of Su-57s design. Some prototypes are for testing the avionics, others for testing the engines, others for testing the sensors, etc. Only the last built prototype, (T-50-11 aka 511) is supposed to be in a serial production configuration. They are not Su-57s same way the YF-22 was not an F-22. So next time someone complains about lack of this or that in the prototypes or whatever, just remember that. These are not production aircraft. They are test articles.

    The first serial produced Su-57 to be delivered to the Russian Air Force is being manufactured right now. It is supposed to be delivered this year. With another one delivered next year. Both will have the first generation engines. Which, contrary to what some say, are not the Su-35s (117S) engines but higher performance engines (117) with a similar base design. Just for comparison the Su-35s 117S has 142kN thrust and the Su-57s 117 has 147kN thrust. The 117S weighs 1604 kg and the 117 weighs 1420 kg. The 117S has 9.04:1 T/W, the 117 has 10.5:1 T/W. I repeat it is not the same engine.

    After those first two years thirteen more Su-57s were supposed to be produced. This was the original order.
    Production was expected to be slow and limited, not for financial reasons, but because the airplane was not considered to be in a mature state at a time the Su-35 and Su-30SM met and exceeded both current and near future Russian Air Force requirements.

    This year, the program was reevaluated. The avionics were completed late last year. So Putin this year visited the production plant KnAAZ at Amur, where both the Su-35 and Su-57 are produced, for an inspection and announced that the Russian government will increase the Su-57 order to 76 aircraft, to be delivered until 2028. The order is supposed to be signed on paper at the MAKS 2019 airshow which is to be hosted in Moscow 27 August-1 September this year.

    At the same time the Russian Air Force is not interested in increasing the production rate significantly until the second stage engines are available and in production. The second stage engines began testing on a flying platform (T-50-2 aka 052) on December 5, 2017. The second stage, izdeliye 30, engines are to have 176kN thrust and be more reliable and fuel efficient. These engines will make the Su-57 a true 5th gen aircraft.
    If the second stage engines follow the typical 5 year development period for such an article they should enter production around 2022-2023.

    As with any Russian arms program piece of equipment the Su-57 is periodically reevaluated and production numbers may be adjusted again in the future.
    Typically the way this works in modern Russian arms programs is the budget is preset at a given funding level and funds are reallocated according to program performance, military requirements, etc. So say the government decides to cancel further orders of a certain weapon system and reallocates the funds to another weapon system. Or they negotiate cost cuts on a weapons system and reallocate the leftover funds to buy some other weapon system or more units of the same.

    What this expanded order brings is basically more stability for the builders of the aircraft so they can invest on expanding the production facilities for the Su-57 and its components. It is also a vote of confidence of sorts by the government on the maturity of the project.

    This is not like the F-22 or F-35 programs where they typically put the cart before the horse and start
     
    #2922 gelgoog, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  3. Air Force Brat
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    I was being extremely generous when I offered the Russians had 10-12 airworthy aircraft my friend, and 10 flying prototypes are indeed progress, but as you note they have no real utility other than as test articles....

    I believe Master Siege was serious when he asked us to leave the F-22, F-35 out of this thread Bub.....
     
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  4. Brumby
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    Actually the predominant Western view on 5th generation battlespace is information warfare and not stealth, maneuverability or speed. It is the non Western view that is somewhat fixated with thrust vectoring and super cruise. We keep on coming back to the SU-57 engine because there is nothing else that is grounded on facts that we can talk about. There is no update on the SU-57 AESA development nor its integrated suite of avionics. The SU-57 that we know of is essentially a SU-35 with some basic VLO features thrown in. Russia to-date has no established track record of producing an airborne fighter AESA radar and so is questionable whether real progress has been made. Until we see some tangible evidence, any claims to progress are mainly speculative.
    Currently if the SU-57 proceeds with Putin's latest plan we have no idea what starting configuration we are even staring at especially given the plan to remove some features to save on production cost.
     
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  5. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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  6. Brumby
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    The most recent update I have seen on the SU-57 testing is from an AWST article dated Sep 4, 2018 written by Piotr Butowski. In it, the SU-57 is currently undergoing stage 2 testing which is primarily associated with mission systems and armaments with planned completion in 2019. Based on this article, it would suggest to me that the SU-57 is very much still in testing phase. Relevant portion of the article is provided below :

     
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  7. Anlsvrthng
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    Anlsvrthng Senior Member
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    The "information warfare", sensor fusion and so on is the backbone of Soviet military doctrine since the 40s.
     
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  8. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    My perspective is that if the Russians can deliver the Su-57 at the price points they've promised (50-80 million), the Su-57 can provide an attritional adjunct for the J-20, alongside later developments of the J-31 model. The J-20 is expensive, the Su-57 is cheap, the Su-57 gets killed in droves (and kills in droves), the J-20 ends up being covered by Su-57s and J-31 developments in WVR.

    One other argument for interception is the weak weapons bay of the J-20. It has roughly the same weapons bay capacity as the F-35, despite being a more expensive heavyweight fighter. Even if the price is eventually reduced, PPP means that the J-20 is more expensive than the F-35. The J-20 wants to unload its weapons bay as soon as possible, hit afterburners to get out of NEZ / effective range ASAP, then supercruise home to reload another salvo of missiles.
     
  9. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Senior Member
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    On the Su-57, is it stealthy enough to get into WVR of a F-35 or F-22?

    In any case, trying to go the attrition route against thousands of F-35s is a losing proposition.

    It's better to spend most resources on hitting the air bases they operate from. And if those airbases are distant, then on more J-20s to hit the vulnerable tankers those F-35s rely on.

    Yup, every stealth fighter should be operating as a sniper and egressing, because it is way less risky than getting into WVR.
     
  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    that depends on a GIANT IF. The Problem for them is how they get to that price point. If they got hundreds and hundreds of orders okay. I mean they would probably have to match F35 Orders to get that price point. Otherwise it’s batteries not included. Where the Plane comes off the boat the pilot starts to inspect and it’s just a empty shell only good for mounting at the gate.
    in the main bay yes with side bay it out numbers current batch F35 in terms of air to air internal carry. Until A and C models get the 6 shooter refit. The main issue though isn’t the size of the bay it’s the size of the weapons. F22 went up in Missile load when the US introduced more compact Weapons.

    Attrition isn’t a way to survive conflict. Training pilots to take out as many enemy as they can before they get shot down is going to cost both aircraft and pilots lives.
    doubtful. I mean VLO vs VLO the first Problem is finding the other guy. It’s like a Ninja fight in the dark and they are both blind.
    Attrition route is generally a loosing prospect in all cases.
    That’s the modern mindset it seems. However that itself may not be a long term option. As VLO tech gets expanded beyond the Kinetic and recon end. The MQ25 already is clearly a VLO and it shows the next potential step.
    BVR was intended to ensure a higher rate of return. Kill the enemy before he kills you. VLO technology has pushed that out of the options of the adversary. Very long range Air to Air missiles tried to buy that back by killing the support system of that. Tankers and AEW. But for the better bullet a better armor.
     
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