Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Anlsvrthng]

That’s not evidence that opinion.
They only have 12, and most of what we have heard from them are estimates and goals.

?
The Su-35 / MIG-29 price fact, not opinion.

You can compare those prices to F-18, if you want to repeat the calculation about efficiency.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

said the ruble is undervalued in the market because of the sanctions. Likely by a factor of two or three IMO.
.

More likely factor of 4 - 6 .

 

[Anlsvrthng]

Stripping the Ram means that the RCS goes up. Because of the shaping it’s still a reduced RCS but only on par with say a J10.

RAM does matter only for X band radars, for longer wavelength it has minor effect .

That is basically why Boeing killed the F15SE. Because the amount of modifications made didn’t equal the return. For a fifth percent reduction of RCS you only get a quarter drop in return range.
For SU57 that means if you strip the RAM you might as well scrap it and go back to SU35.

What you want to mean by "fitth percent " ?
To reduce the detection range by half the RCS has to reduced by 94%.

Quite easy, if the RCS is one meter sphere can be detected from 100 km, a 25cm sphere can be detected from 50 km, 6.25 cm from 25 km and so on.

The above calculation true only if the wavelength is way smaller (magnitudes ) than the object.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

I just become curious about the quantitative advantage of stealth shaping/RAM.

Now it is quite interesting.

Gulf war:
100 000 sorties, less than 10% SEAD , 5 aircraft lost due to radar guided SAM ( S-75 and S-125 ) , magnitude more aircraft was downed than this number, but those was killed by medium / low SAMs. No stealth loss.
Serbian air raid , 8 years later :
33 000 sorties, 37% of SEAD ( 14k of the 37k ) . Killed one stealth and one non-stealth fighter with S-125. Damaged one stealth and one non stealth fighter ( just for reference, damages not included in the gulf war )

Difference between the Iraqi / Serbian IADS was only the training / organisation of the later.

Source mainly wiki .

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

No because the cheaper Su-57 for mass production would have the AESA radar and the improved engines. It would always be superior to the Su-35.
Because of mass production of it this would decrease parts costs for the stealth version of the Su-57 with RAM installed.
I know no other 5th gen currently has a twin seater but it must happen eventually. The HAL Sukhoi/HAL PGFA was supposed to be a twin seater.

Then port the AESA radar into a SU35 airframe.

RAM does matter only for X band radars, for longer wavelength it has minor effect .

And the attack radar on a fighter jet is almost always Xband. The Long wavelength radar may see a low observable but can’t be fitted to a fighter. It’s only good for ground stations. As an early warning or large AWACS. Even then it can’t get the quality of return needed for a kill so an Attack Radar has to be used.

What you want to mean by "fitth percent " ?
To reduce the detection range by half the RCS has to reduced by 94%.

I wasn’t giving exact figures but that’s my point to get a substantial Reduction in range of detection you need a huge amount of investment in Stealth of the aircraft. Skimping on the RCS doesn’t help you it hurts you. If you skip a feature of stealth you might as well kill the program and port its avionics to a 4.5 gen.

Quite easy, if the RCS is one meter sphere can be detected from 100 km, a 25cm sphere can be detected from 50 km, 6.25 cm from 25 km and so on.

The above calculation true only if the wavelength is way smaller (magnitudes ) than the object.

And getting those require Shaping, materials, Coatings, internal weapons carry, serpentine inlets and more skipping parts of that increases the RCS back up substantially. And so the range of detection goes up substantially. SU57 is meant to close in and attack. But if the range of detection is 100km then any other fifth gen it might meet will see it first and kill it first.
Since the Attack Radar is an X band that RAM is critical. The long band issue you keep harping on is for thin ram around features like vertical stabs.

In Serbia the Serbs had a good intelligence network who learned the routes of travel for F117 and told them that The SEAD birds that were hunting SAM sites were grounded as their base was rained in. F117 lacked any organic countermeasures or ability to detect radar and missile threats. Modern Fifth generation fighters are loaded with countermeasures and electronic warfare systems as standard.

 

[Brumby]

The Su-57 cost 2.2 billion rouble, that is close to two times more than the Su-35, and it doesn't taken into consideration the maintenance cost.

Can you please provide your reference source (with link if possible) on the 2.2 billion rouble per SU-57.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Most of this is whataboutism. I can see why others are saying they don't reply now. This is not a thread talking about the F-35. There is a comparison based on timing. I think you will find few folks will NOT find issue with how the F-35 program was run.

That said, we are discussing the delays to the Su-57. The claims of delays and a comparison between the F-35 and Su-57 as far as there are delays.

There are already delays. That is based on what the Russians have said and what has been observed.

Even if you throw away the 100 airframes of the F-35 (not sure that's accurate, but I'll just give it to you), the F-35 program will STILL have delivered another 300 in the same timeframe. 300 is, last time I checked, still greater than 76.

Again, I am not excusing the F-35 program. Anyone who ever suggests concurrency again out to be taken outback with the belt and chair. However, if you want to do direct comparisons based on output - or /projected/ output! - then the F-35 program for all its sins will have performed better than the Su-57 program.

yep, its a LOT greater than 10-12 airframes currently airworthy, by the time Russia has 76 we will likely have another 300 to 400 aircraft, the F-35 is a magnificent airframe, with all that LockMart sweetness, if you don't believe me watch the intentional departure testing etc, etc, and take a look at that amazing 9G "Dojo Drift", ck out the RIAT 2018 airshow, that's crazy!

 

[Air Force Brat]

No because the cheaper Su-57 for mass production would have the AESA radar and the improved engines. It would always be superior to the Su-35.
Because of mass production of it this would decrease parts costs for the stealth version of the Su-57 with RAM installed.
I know no other 5th gen currently has a twin seater but it must happen eventually. The HAL Sukhoi/HAL PGFA was supposed to be a twin seater.

That Indian bird is NOT happening! the Su-57 is a grave contrast to the J-20 which has very obviously been "shaped" to lower RCS substantially!

 

[gelgoog]

Well will see if it happens or not. Independently of the Indians wanting it or not Russia will need a dual seater for bombing missions.
The modification should be more or less trivial. I expect it to happen after the 2nd stage engines become available.
Unless if for some reason they develop some other platform to be the dual seater bomber. The MiG-41 i.e. PAK-DP is a possible candidate.
If its mission profile is anything like the MiG-31s it will need a dedicate weapons operator and a larger payload bay than the Su-57.

A lot of people seem to think the only point of the Su-57 is the stealth. Well it is not. It has a better radar, more pilot assists, and better maneuverability. Yes, unlike with the F-35, the kinematic performance of the Su-57 will be better than that of its predecessor. So no, it does not make any sense to continue building the Su-35 in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

So no, it does not make any sense to continue building the Su-35 in my opinion.

Assuming if Russia can scrap together the rubles for it. For a country as large as Russia it will need at least hundreds if not thousands of fighters to properly patrol its borders, so there is a place for 4th gen fighters to conduct peacetime air patrols and/or local air defense where it can leverage ground based radar and EW systems to compensate for it's own lack of stealth and radar.