Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[Air Force Brat]

I took an interest myself, searched yandex.ru for
Су-57 цена самолета
now, and my hit#2 is

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I quickly translate the second paragraph
:

"The thing is the sources of The Kommersant newspaper claimed the contract
[for 76 Su-57s]
that should be signed at MAKS-2019 has a value "around 170b ruble." In other words, one copy of Su-57 will cost the Russian Air Force about 2.2b ruble, about $35m."

EDIT
now got an idea (LOL) to search google for
170+billion+ruble+su-57
and found

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"The actual contract is likely to be signed at MAKS-2019 show late August. According to

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the contract is valued at 170 billion RUB (this figure is too low), which will fully load the production line at Komsomolsk-on-Amur plant, though at a rather low profit margin of 3-5%."
etc.

This is utter and complete nonsense, the Russians quoted the Indian's 250 million a copy for the Su-57, when it became apparent that FGFA was NOT going to happen. That is honestly more like it for these LRIP birds if and when they actually do begin "batch production"....

Remember aircraft of the 5th generation are EXPENSIVE! and there are NO PLANS for a 6th generation aircraft at present by anybody on the planet....

all the aircraft currently in planning will be very fortunate indeed to come up to a 5 Gen standard.... the F-22 set a very high bar, it is still the very high bar on almost every meaningful level...

The Su-57 as Mr. Brumby points out does not have many VLO shaping themes, (very small all flying vertical stabs being the major VLO theme), using OVT to add additional yaw control with 3D thrust vectoring...

 

[Anlsvrthng]

According to Serbian sources, both P-18 and P-15 radars were attempting to track the F-117 on that day. The P-18 radar operating in VHF frequencies managed to first detect the F-117 at about 50-60 kms and then developed a stable track from 25 km. It should be noted that initial detection distance is rather meaningless until after the fact when a meaningful track is established or else they are simply noise from clutter. According to Wiki, the P-18 has a detection range out to 250 km and so the F-117 was effective even against VHF until 50 kms. The P-15 operating in UHF was simply ineffective against the F-117. This speaks volume concerning the effectiveness of lower frequencies band against VLO platform. As the F-117 shoot down demonstrated, VLO delivers significant advantage even against lower frequencies band.



According to Serbian accounts, the P-18 only had a clear track on the F-117 at around 25 kms when the frequency settings was manually lowered to 150 MHZ (mid band of VHF range). This means the idea of UHF and L band frequencies being meaningfully able to detect VLO at distance is simply not supported by the F117 shoot down. It should be noted that the F-117 did not have RWR nor ESM protection. This effectively was a clean encounter without the distortion arising from ECM. As a general rule of thumb, effective jamming objective is to lower detection range by 50 %. Any objective analysis of the F-117 situation will easily draw the conclusion that VLO worked as advertised. The shootdown was a combination of luck, sloppy route planning and lack of ESM support on that day.

It is a conclusion drawn by both China and Russia by the pursuance of their respective VLO programs.

The P-18 is a 50s design radar, never designed against feature less airplanes.
Main problem with it is the horizontal polarisation.


All modern (since 70s) VHF/UHF radar use vertical polarisation. ( against aircrafts - ballistic missile could be horizontal )

The main problem with the F-117 was the lack of weapon pillon/ all smaller features that makes a normal airplane visible on all frequencies.
Due to that depending on the angle of aircraft relative of the radar (in horizontal polarisation case) the frequency has to be changed .

Now, that was the issue with the Serb radar as well.

If the radar is a vertical polarisation one then they won't have issue to follow from hundreds of kms.

While it is generally known that the F-22 has a -40dB vs the F-35 -30 dB, the F-35 supposedly is able to generate a lower RF signature operationally due to its more advanced sensor fusion. You might ask, what has this got to do with the SU-57 conversion.

Firstly, the SU-57 is no where close to the VLO profile of the F-35 or F-22. At best it would be graded with a -10 dB. We are therefore comparing apples and oranges. Secondly, the strength of the F-35 is in its sensor fusion - not stealth. The development money and the cost of the F-35 is inherent in its electronic capabilities. We know nothing of the SU-57 progress including whether it even has a working AESA radar let alone all the other electronic "goodies". Explaining away the cost differential due to PPP is simply laughable. There is a cost attached to every capability.

This sensor fusion is a nice hype. and absolutely off topic. It is not proven if : 1. it works 2. it has any benefit.

Finally, the AESA going back to the same premise : a bigger PESA radar (like on Su-35) outperform the F35 smaller AESA radar. Simply basic antenna theory.
The smaller one has to push magnitude higher energy just to compensate for the the size disadvantage .


This is the reason why a sensible design has to happen like the Su57, and not like the F35 ,where they attached dreamed up price tags for unproven ,not existing features.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Please return to topic and refrain from F-35/F-22/F-117 related discussions. Thanks.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I didn’t post that @Anlsvrthng that was @Brumby.

And UHF Radar advantage is Hype and 1) Not proven if it gains enough range to be of practical benefits and 2) still going to be of such low resolution as to make is doubtful.

And as pointed out SU57 has a dreamed up price tag and just as many nonexistent features. As it waits for its new radar, Avionics and engines.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I didn’t post that @Anlsvrthng that was @Brumby.

And UHF Radar advantage is Hype and 1) Not proven if it gains enough range to be of practical benefits and 2) still going to be of such low resolution as to make is doubtful.

And as pointed out SU57 has a dreamed up price tag and just as many nonexistent features. As it waits for its new radar, Avionics and engines.

true, and if the Su-57 was indeed that cheap, we would be looking a 50 to 75 aircraft not 10 or 12.....

 

[anzha]

true, and if the Su-57 was indeed that cheap, we would be looking a 50 to 75 aircraft not 10 or 12.....

To be fair, I am not sure we would be. The Russians seem to be unable to afford the T-14 tanks, which are considerably cheaper than $30M.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

To be fair, I am not sure we would be. The Russians seem to be unable to afford the T-14 tanks, which are considerably cheaper than $30M.

and that has a fictitious price tag and features being hyped that don’t exist as well.

 

[anzha]

and that has a fictitious price tag and features being hyped that don’t exist as well.

True, but a tank is considerably cheaper than a fighter unless either you are doing it wrong or making an Ogre or Bolo MK XIV+.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

I didn’t post that @Anlsvrthng that was @Brumby.

And UHF Radar advantage is Hype and 1) Not proven if it gains enough range to be of practical benefits and 2) still going to be of such low resolution as to make is doubtful.

And as pointed out SU57 has a dreamed up price tag and just as many nonexistent features. As it waits for its new radar, Avionics and engines.

true, and if the Su-57 was indeed that cheap, we would be looking a 50 to 75 aircraft not 10 or 12.....

To be fair, I am not sure we would be. The Russians seem to be unable to afford the T-14 tanks, which are considerably cheaper than $30M.

Interesting preconceptions, however the observed facts doesn't support them.
Observed facts :
1.the current Su57 has superior performance compared to the F35 ( at least from engine/ agility standpoint )
2.Turkey has very deep knowledge about the F35 AND the S-400, but choose the later
3.Russia average aircraft procurement number was 40-50 jet/year in the past decade AND S-400 batteries, VHF ASEA radars and so on.
4. Current data showing a 50% higher price tag than the Su-35 for the Su57, that is in line with the US twin fighter experiences - but we can expect no more than 100% price tag if the numbers from news rubbish

Point 3 and 4 showing that Russia can afford to buy Su57, or speed up the development, but it doesn't do it due to 2.

Point 2 and 3 together showing that the stealth advantage overhyped, and the UHF / multiband networked radar advantage underhyped .

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Interesting preconceptions, however the observed facts doesn't support them.
Observed facts :
1.the current Su57 has superior performance compared to the F35 ( at least from engine/ agility standpoint )

Doesn’t matter. You keep trying to drag it into a Su57 v F35. That is outside the point. Besides in many engagements the advantage isn’t Kinetics using the ability’s of the fighter not just kinetics but avionics.
Oh and the engines of SU57 have not appeared yet beyond current flanker series types

2.Turkey has very deep knowledge about the F35 AND the S-400, but choose the later

Turkey has tried to have its cake and eat it to. They were pushed to make a choice they kept floundering trying to avoid picking. The choice was made for them.

3.Russia average aircraft procurement number was 40-50 jet/year in the past decade AND S-400 batteries, VHF ASEA radars and so on.

Of course but they only buy for a year or two.
However in this case they have been languishing. Despite having been unveiled earlier the SU57 only numbers a dozen units well the J20 is double. Buying new SU35 and Mig35 doesn’t mean that they will match those numbers with SU57.

4. Current data showing a 50% higher price tag than the Su-35 for the Su57, that is in line with the US twin fighter experiences - but we can expect no more than 100% price tag if the numbers from news rubbish

Current PROJECTIONS.
And optimistic ones at that. You harp on western fighters price tags but those are solid data not sales numbers.

Point 3 and 4 showing that Russia can afford to buy Su57, or speed up the development, but it doesn't do it due to 2.

No it’s a long running joke by the Russians, every year they announce the same new system Carrier/Tank/Fighter it’s just a few years away and then as the date comes close. They suddenly announce it again farther in the Future.

Point 2 and 3 together showing that the stealth advantage overhyped, and the UHF / multiband networked radar advantage underhyped .

Again some how America’s stealth is bogus but Russian stealth is the real deal? Moving the goal posts.