Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by bd popeye, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Jeff Head
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    Jeff Head Super Moderator
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    It is possible for their Navy to "receive" the ship sometime in 2018...but only if they can get her on her first trials this summer sometime.

    But even then, their NAvy will then have to put the ship through their own trials...and then develop her airwing and the policies, procedures, and methodolgies to use her in a operational manner.

    That will take a minimum of two years...and perha[ps three or four.

    So, they may get her...if they can get her into her initial trials...but she will not rqeach IOC until probably 2020, and FOC by maybe 2022.
     
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  2. Bltizo
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    Bltizo Senior Member

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    The problem is subsystems like aviation systems including things as vital as arresting gear, not to mention sensors and weapons.

    It sounds like those things will not be equipped on the INS Vikrant until after 2018-2019, which obviously means it would be impossible to put the ship through proper trials or even to embark fixed wing aircraft.


    The key thing to watch is what state of completion the INS Vikrant will be at when it begins sea trials -- whether all the subsystems are there or not.
     
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  3. Jeff Head
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    Well, we shall have to see.

    the Vikram is otu there and the Migs are landing with arresting gear and she is now fairly decently armed.

    I cannot imagine the Indians putting the vessel to see with the Navy for any Naval trials without arresting wires and gear. They have operated carriers for years, and they have now operated the Vikramaditya with a wing of Mig-29Ks for some time. So they are capable of doing it...and I cannot image them not having those things on their carrier for later builders trials and then naval trials.

    We'll just have to wait and see. I know they can get help if they need it...the Russians would be happy to help them as would western firms, both French and US in particular.
     
  4. Bltizo
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    Bltizo Senior Member

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    Regarding the INS Vishal, the latest news appears to be that as I wrote in the 002 thread in reply to sinosoldier, that the design of INS Vishal has yet to be finalized and in fact it seems like the Indian Navy is still debating what kind of ship they even want!!

    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-india-s-aircraft-carrier-117041900950_1.html

    full article via a blog that reposted it (http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2017/04/as-china-races-ahead-mod-dithers-on.html)
    Note the key parts that I highlighted, which are important about the state of the INS Vishal as a programme in terms of where it has actually progressed to (or rather not progressed to).

    As China races ahead, MoD dithers on India’s aircraft carrier


    By Ajai Shukla
    Business Standard, 20th April 17


    As Beijing decisively implements its vision of aircraft carrier-based naval power, New Delhi seems uncertain about the form and structure of its naval combat aviation.

    Last month China’s defence ministry announced the impending launch of Shandong, its first indigenous aircraft carrier. On Friday, a Beijing-based naval expert revealed that the People’s Liberation Army (Navy)’s, or PLA(N)’s, third carrier could be a US Navy-style nuclear-powered vessel, featuring an electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS).

    In New Delhi, however, a senior navy admiral revealed uncertainty about India’s indigenous aircraft carrier programme. The first indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-1), named INS Vikrant, will roll out of Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) later this decade. But the navy and the ministry are still making up their minds about its successor, IAC-2.

    Vice Admiral DM Deshpande, the navy’s warship acquisition head, stated on Tuesday that the ministry remains uncertain about spending billions of dollars on a carrier.

    “Right now there is a bit of a question mark from the ministry’s side, [although] we have taken this up to the ministry on a few occasions. [An aircraft carrier] is a huge ticket item and, before some commitments are made on allocation of these funds everybody wants to be very clear on the requirement, whether we actually need that. So these are being addressed [before] we actually take it up to the government for final clearances”, said Deshpande, addressing defence industrialists in New Delhi.


    The three services are competing for the same limited budget. With the cost of INS Vikrant (IAC-1) reportedly nudging $4 billion, the Indian Air Force argues that land-based combat aircraft, with their ranges enhanced with in-flight refuelling, would project offensive air power more cheaply than an aircraft carrier. The navy counters that an aircraft carrier is a mobile air base, that can move to a combat zone quickly.

    Even within the navy, some argue that the same amount spent on submarines, or a larger number of smaller surface warships like destroyers, frigates and corvettes, would generate greater combat effect than a carrier.

    This is the longstanding debate between sea denial (denying the enemy the use of the sea, primarily with submarines) and sea control (dominating the ocean with air and surface power, built around a carrier). Sea control requires massive spending on carrier battle groups, or CBGs – an aircraft carrier and the warships that accompany it. In contrast, sea denial is a defensive strategy that takes less money – the cost of a submarine-based force.

    Powerful, modern navies --- like the US Navy, the Royal Navy, the French, Russian and now even the PLA(N) --- have all built their fleets around aircraft carriers, enabling the projection of power to large distances from home bases.

    Although the Indian Navy doctrine talks about power projection, and the service has decisively opted for aircraft carriers, discussion continues over whether to build a large, nuclear-powered carrier, or a smaller one like IAC-1. Reflecting this, Deshpande says: “There are lots of discussions within the navy on what type of IAC-2 we want. From the tonnage to the propulsion --- we are debating on this. Once we are more or less clear within the navy [about] what exactly we want, we would take up the case with the ministry for various approvals.”

    Sea control advocates in the navy are inclined towards a 65,000-tonne, nuclear powered carrier that embarks 55 combat aircraft; and a state-of-the-art EMALS catapult that can rapidly launch fighter aircraft as well as larger aircraft for electronic warfare and airborne early warning. The name being suggested for IAC-2 is INS Vishal.

    Deshpande expresses confidence that “in the next two-three months, we should be in a position to take it up to the ministry to get the funds”. With INS Vikrant likely to be operationally ready only in 2023 – eight years late – there is little time to lose.

    Currently, the PLA(N) operates only its first-ever carrier, the 65,000-tonne Liaoning, which Beijing bought from Russia, refurbished, and commissioned in 2012. India, with far greater experience, has operated at least one aircraft carrier ever since INS Vikrant joined the fleet in 1961.

    The PLA(N), however, now plans to commission and operate at least 5-6 carriers. The Indian Navy plans to operate a fleet of three aircraft carriers.



    So by the sounds of it the IN are yet to decide on a concept that they seriously want, and yet to have the funding to properly develop a concept into a fully fleshed out design that can be constructed.
     
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  5. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Senior Member

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    Inde destroyer Mumbai, frigates Tarkash & Trishul.jpg
     
  6. PiSigma
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    PiSigma "the engineer"

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    In engineering terms it sounds like they are still in scope definition stage.

    For those that don't know what I mean, I list out the engineering stages below.

    Scope definition - basically a general idea of what you want to design.
    Design basis - deciding on the details of engineering basis. Such as the type of materials to use and limitations on the systems and subsystems. Very simple, generalized drawings are issued.
    Front end engineering - calculations and equipments sizing are done in this stage. Detailed drawings are issued. Also hazard and safety and operational reviews are done in this stage.
    Detailed engineering - finalize everything, and final issue of drawings. If scope changes here, your project just done to crap.
    Construction
    Startup.

    Considering they are still trying to decide on scope. I would think engineering with all the steps involved would take them at least several more years.
     
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  7. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Senior Member

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  8. Hendrik_2000
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    Hendrik_2000 Senior Member

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    A bit of advice from China to India "Take care of your economy first before even thinking of building carrier"
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...naval-power/story-QtWTWBkGB3LFvVfWN4dd7K.html
    China to unveil aircraft carrier as media takes dig at India's naval power
    WORLD Updated: Apr 24, 2017 18:24 IST

    Against the backdrop of reports that China’s first domestically built aircraft carrier will be unveiled soon, state media on Monday took a dig at India by saying its first home-grown carrier isn’t even operational and that New Delhi should keep its military ambitions in check.

    Reports in the Chinese media said the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy was making “final preparations” to launch its first domestically built aircraft carrier to mark the 68th anniversary of the founding of the maritime force, which was on Sunday.

    “The scaffolding around the ship, temporarily named the Type 001A, was removed and the deck was cleared,” Shanghai-based news portal thepaper.cn reported, indicating the unveiling is likely to be done soon though it could not happen on Sunday because of low tides.

    Reports said it took China about five years to make its own aircraft carrier that it will be inducted into the navy by 2020.

    State media took the opportunity to make a few points about the naval capabilities of China and India.

    In a piece with the headline “India needs to learn that economic development comes before a naval buildup”, the nationalistic Global Times tabloid said: “Aircraft carriers are seen as symbols of a nation's military might, but the construction of them consumes huge amounts of resources, thus requiring developing countries to learn how to keep their military ambitions in check.”

    China had no aircraft carrier till 2012 while India’s first was purchased from Britain in the late 1950s. China’s pursuit of military development has been in “sync” with its overall economic development, the article said. It added China’s priority was developing its economy and then building “resource consuming” aircraft carriers.

    “India itself could be taken as a negative example for a buildup of aircraft carriers...New Delhi is perhaps too impatient to develop an aircraft carrier. The country is still in its initial stages of industrialisation and there will be many obstacles that stand in the way of a buildup of aircraft carriers,” the article said.

    China would have finished work on an indigenous carrier “several years ago if Beijing had simply wanted to engage in an arms race to have more influence in the Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean regions”, it added.


    Meanwhile, Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post said China’s new aircraft carrier has a displacement of 70,000 tonnes, is 315 metres long, 75 metres wide and has a cruising speed of 31 knots.

    “It is slightly larger than the Liaoning, China’s first aircraft carrier, which was refurbished from the semi-completed Soviet carrier Varyag, which Beijing bought from a Ukrainian shipyard in 1998,” the report said.

    The new carrier has a larger hangar to carry more J-15 fighters and more space on deck for helicopters and other aircraft.

    State media has reported China plans to have six aircraft carriers, and the second one to be built domestically is being constructed in Shanghai.
     
    #3598 Hendrik_2000, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  9. Hendrik_2000
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    Hendrik_2000 Senior Member

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    Here is the original article
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1043781.shtml
    India needs to learn that economic development comes before a naval buildup
    By Hu Weijia Source:Global Times Published: 2017/4/24 0:23:39

    "China is planning to build more aircraft carriers to bolster its maritime capabilities, which could pose a bigger threat to India," India's Economic Times reported recently. With concerns expressed by Indian media outlets about the rise of China's military strength, the two countries need to avert an arms race, especially at a time when China's first domestically built aircraft carrier is being prepared for launch in late April.

    Aircraft carriers are seen as symbols of a nation's military might, but the construction of them consumes huge amounts of resources, thus requiring developing countries to learn how to keep their military ambitions in check. China had no aircraft carriers until 2012 when its first one, the Liaoning, was commissioned, adding to the evidence that China's pursuit of military development has been in synch with its overall economic expansion.

    As the world's second-largest economy, China is now capable of building a strong navy to safeguard the security of strategic maritime channels. China's construction of its first aircraft carrier is a result of economic development. The country would have finished work on it several years ago if Beijing had simply wanted to engage in an arms race to have more influence in the Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean regions.

    India itself could be taken as a negative example for a buildup of aircraft carriers. India's first aircraft carrier was purchased from the UK in 1957, but the vessel was not adequate for modern strategic requirements, forcing India to develop its own aircraft carrier. The country unveiled its first domestically built aircraft carrier in 2015, but the Wall Street Journal said in 2016 that top US naval engineers discovered the carrier wouldn't be operational for up to a decade. New Delhi is perhaps too impatient to develop an aircraft carrier. The country is still in its initial stage of industrialization, and there will be many technical obstacles that stand in the way of a buildup of aircraft carriers.

    In the past few decades, India and China have taken different paths in terms of aircraft carriers, but the different results achieved by the two countries point to the underlying importance of economic development. New Delhi should perhaps be less eager to speed up the process of building aircraft carriers in order to counter China's growing sway in the Indian Ocean, and focus more on its economy.
     
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  10. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Senior Member

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    A new Sqn the 11th on Su-30MKI

    Indian Air Force's 221 Squadron s..jpg Indian Air Force's 221 Squadron 'Valiants' at.jpg
     
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