CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Probably not 80 aircraft really. Just the way Nimitz have, in the past, operated 80 aircraft, but nowadays they operate different, bigger planes and today's aeroplane and helicopter total is closer to 65-70.

But to go from 001's 24 combat planes and aew helicopters to possibly 36+ combat planes and aew planes - would be a huge jump in capabilities.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Umm, no. The Indian Navy has decided they want EMALS on the carrier, they've decided they want it to displace 65,000 tons full and have about 55 aircraft.
But apart from that they have yet to finalize a design, and you yourself have even said that they have yet to even settle on a nuclear propulsion system (which is probably the most vital part of a CVN to begin with).
Put all that together, along with the atrocious programme management causing delays, which seems to compound all recent, indigenous big ticket projects of the Indian Navy (P15A, INS Vikrant, P17) between launch to commissioning, and I think an early 2030s in service date is actually pretty reasonable if not optimistic.

At the very least you can surely admit that a 2025 service date is impossible, as such a service date means it would need 1-2 years of sea trials prior to 2025, not to mention at least 1-2 years of fitting out prior to sea trials, and a ship of that size and complexity would need at least 3-4 years of construction prior to launch.
That means if INS Vishal really wants to be in service by 2025 it would have to begin construction of the first modules either this year or next at the very latest -- and that is assuming the Indian shipbuilding industry is able to do the job in the timely fashion listed above which is what you'd expect for a US shipyard, UK shipyard or a Chinese shipyard, but which given the track record of Indian shipyards I wouldn't be surprised if construction from module fabrication to launch takes double that time and fitting out even longer.

Or let's put it this way -- from where we stand now, the INS Vishal as about as good a chance of entering service in 2025 as the INS Vikrant does of entering service in 2018.

If it turns out that the Indian shipbuilding industry somehow gets its act together just as they start constructing INS Vishal, or if they receive massive, useful assistance from the US industry, then sure, that may change things, but those are the equivalent of unforeseen acts of god from where we are right now.

China's naval priorities are dependent on what its strategic interests, are, not to seek whatever degree of "lead" over other navies for the sake of it.

I'm also not sure what you're particularly concerned about -- consider the Chinese Navy in 2025 and think about how many 055s, 052Ds, 054Bs and 054As they have in service by then, and look at the construction and commissioning plans for other navies around the world and their destroyers, frigates and carriers, then re-examine the issue a little.

I'm curious as to where you got the idea that the IN is still in the process of finalizing the design. From the sources that you and I have posted, the IN has already decided that the vessel will be nuclear powered and with an EMALS catapult. The speculation on the procurement of its powerplant is just that - speculation, and doesn't mean that the IN hasn't already decided on a way to obtain the reactors. There are also numerous sources purporting that the ship is already under construction.

If we go by a 4-year construction time, followed by 2 years of outfitting and 2 years of sea trials, a 2025 date is perfectly feasible. Of course, delays could happen but that remains to be seen.

My comment regarding PLAN vs IN/RN in general was touching on Chinese vs Indian power projection, particularly in the IOR and where the PLAN would presumably operate to defend Chinese shipping traffic, as well as IN projection into the SCS. In this regard, the CV-001/A/2 and Vikrant/etc. are the key players.

I would be surprised if Vikrant would be commissioned by 2025 ... more likely 2032 ... so let alone CVN LOL ;)

What makes you think so? The vessel is in advanced stages of fitting out.

80 aircraft? Wow!

Just an extrapolation taken from the Kitty Hawk.

Westinghouse is bankrupt, gone, and its mother, Toshiba, is in danger of going the same way. Would India buy the remains? I don't think that would make sense.

Thanks; I did not know that.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
You realize that the Cochin shipyard's latest projection for the Vikrant, a ship whose keel was laid down in 2009, is service entry in 2023, right? You think a nuclear-powered, EMALS-equipped, far larger ship will be ready just 2 years later? Do you realize how long it takes just to go from settling on requirements to completion of design? There's no way possible for the Vishal to be in service within that time frame, and 2030 is even well on the optimistic side.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'm curious as to where you got the idea that the IN is still in the process of finalizing the design. From the sources that you and I have posted, the IN has already decided that the vessel will be nuclear powered and with an EMALS catapult. The speculation on the procurement of its powerplant is just that - speculation, and doesn't mean that the IN hasn't already decided on a way to obtain the reactors. There are also numerous sources purporting that the ship is already under construction.

I think you and I may have different interpretations of the phrase "finalized design". For me, it means they've got the schematics all designed and frozen and knowing which subsystems they're using and where they will be in the ship.
What you've described for the IN deciding the vessel to be nuclear powered and having EMALS, is the equivalent of them having decided the parameters or the requirements for what their design should fulfill, but as of yet we have no indication that they've settled on a design yet.


If we go by a 4-year construction time, followed by 2 years of outfitting and 2 years of sea trials, a 2025 date is perfectly feasible. Of course, delays could happen but that remains to be seen.

All that is assuming construction of INS Vishal would have to start this year or next at the latest. Do you really think that's going to happen?
And tell me, do you think, given the Indian shipbuilding industry's performance for other similar big ticket projects, like INS Vikrant, P15A, P17, that they would even be able to deliver a ship as complex as this in the kind of timely manner you describe?

No. I think it is immensely unlikely to virtually impossible for INS Vishal to enter service by 2025.
After all, just remember that INS Vikrant is only projected to enter true service with vital systems like aviation complex, sensors and weapons, by 2023 with the most recent projections from Cochin shipyard. And it wasn't so long ago that the Indian govt and/or military were hoping for INS Vikrant's sea trials to begin in 2013 with commissioning in 2014, then commissioning was pushed back to 2018, and now it's been pushed back to 2023 for true commissioning with all systems fitted.


My comment regarding PLAN vs IN/RN in general was touching on Chinese vs Indian power projection, particularly in the IOR and where the PLAN would presumably operate to defend Chinese shipping traffic, as well as IN projection into the SCS. In this regard, the CV-001/A/2 and Vikrant/etc. are the key players.

I would be more concerned about land based air power and submarines than carriers to be honest, and that's going for both sides.
Not to mention the surface escorts both navies would have at their disposal -- think about how many P15A and P15B destroyers and how many Talwar, P17 and P17A frigates the IN may have by 2025 and consider how many 055s, 052Ds, 052Cs, and 054As and 054Bs the Chinese Navy may have by 2025, and the respective capabilities of each individual platform as well -- then it may be worth starting to think about the carriers they each are able to escort.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Similar time frames would suggest both started at about the same time and both will get a certain stage at about the same time -- for example between keel laying and between launch or between keel laying and between commissioning.


Even assuming INS Vikrant and 001A both go to sea by 2018-2019 and both enter service between 2020-2021 (which by all accounts is optimistic for the INS Vikrant), that is still a six year difference between the laying of the keel of 001A compared to INS Vikrant, where INS Vikrant would go from a 2009 keel laying to a 2020 (optimistic) commissioning date of 11 years, whereas 001A would go from a 2015 keel laying to a 2020 commissioning date of 5 years.

It's almost double (or half, depending on how you look at it) the length of time, and most definitely not the same "time frame" at all.

So yes, both shipyards and nations may be technically "doing" but one is doing at about half the speed of the other.
My point is simple. Even though India launched Vikrant earlier...they will go to sea for trials in the same time frame.

That is all I was saying and I believe it is going to be fairly accurate.

But, beyond that, I expect China to now launch and commison the 3rd carrier ahead of the Indians.

This does not mean India is "bad". They simply do not have the infrastructure or means to launch and deliver large ships in the type of time frame the Chinese do.

But they are getting there...and they will, in the 2020s deliver their 3rd carrier too.

Again...India and China are both "doing." The one pst I was responded to inferred that INdia just talks and doesn't "do" things. This is not the case. They have been launching quite a lot of vessels (for India) over the last few years, and ultimately will have, in a reasnable time frame, a three carrier Navy.

But not as quickly as China...and they cannot keep up with China's overall production rate...they simply do not have the experience, or the infrastructure to do so.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
My point is simple. Even though India launched Vikrant earlier...they will go to sea for trials in the same time frame.

That is all I was saying and I believe it is going to be fairly accurate.

Okay, if it is only talking about when they will be going on sea trials then that would likely be an accurate statement, however omitting when the work on both ships actually began is a bit dodgy imo, especially if one wants to use their sea trial "time frame" as an example of how both are "doing" things to a supposedly similar degree as your last post seemed to imply.


But, beyond that, I expect China to now launch and commison the 3rd carrier ahead of the Indians.

This does not mean India is "bad". They simply do not have the infrastructure or means to launch and deliver large ships in the type of time frame the Chinese do.

But they are getting there...and they will, in the 2020s deliver their 3rd carrier too.

Again...India and China are both "doing." The one pst I was responded to inferred that INdia just talks and doesn't "do" things. This is not the case. They have been launching quite a lot of vessels (for India) over the last few years, and ultimately will have, in a reasnable time frame, a three carrier Navy.

But not as quickly as China...and they cannot keep up with China's overall production rate...they simply do not have the experience, or the infrastructure to do so.

Comparatively speaking, I think the Chinese military "talks" a lot less and "does" a lot more or at least much faster and more efficiently, while the Indian military "talks" a lot more and "does" a lot less or at least much slower and less efficiently.

As you say, this isn't necessarily an indictment of "good" or "bad". But remember that we are coming from the PLA watching background where the PLA keeps details of its many big ticket under development projects under careful wrap often until even after they're in service -- compared with the Indian military who are very open and almost promotional about their under development big ticket projects, and then looking at the difference in how each side delivers on their promises... well I think the inference isn't an unfair one.
 

by78

General
My point is simple. Even though India launched Vikrant earlier...they will go to sea for trials in the same time frame.

Vikrant is about a decade away from service IF everything goes smoothly, per this Wall Street Journal article. Given it took India an average of 10 years to commission each ship of the Kolkata Class DDG and 9 years for each ship of the Shivalik class FFG, I think Vikrant won't be ready for service until the 2030s at the earliest, even with our help.

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U.S. Effort to Help India Build Up Navy Hits Snag
Daniel Stacey

NEW DELHI—When top American naval engineers recently inspected India’s first locally made aircraft carrier they expected to find a near battle-ready ship set
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in the Indian Ocean.

Instead, they discovered the carrier wouldn’t be operational for up to a decade and other shortcomings: no small missile system to defend itself, a limited ability to launch sorties and no defined strategy for how to use the ship in combat. The findings alarmed U.S. officials hoping to enlist India as a bulwark against China, people close to the meeting said.

“China’s navy will be the biggest in the world soon, and they’re definitely eyeing the Indian Ocean with ports planned in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh,” said retired Admiral Arun Prakash, the former commander of India’s navy. “The Indian navy is concerned about this.”

The February carrier inspection, in the port of Kochi, formed part of U.S. plans to share aircraft carrier technology with India. Indian naval officials followed up with a tour of an American shipbuilding yard in Virginia and strategy briefings at the Pentagon in September, the people close to the meetings said.

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politically and militarily. The two have participated in joint naval exercises with Japan. The U.S. has agreed to sell New Delhi everything from attack helicopters to artillery. Washington has approved proposals by
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and
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Co. to make advanced jet fighters in India. And in August, the two countries signed a military logistics-sharing accord.

The emerging relationship has reshaped Asia’s geopolitical terrain, riling China, which has issued diplomatic complaints over the joint exercises, and sometimes sidelining Russia, long India’s largest supplier of military hardware.

Both Indian and American officials say they hope cooperation will grow under President-elect Donald Trump, who has signaled a tougher approach toward China. After the U.S. election, the American Ambassador to India said the ties forged with India under President Barack Obama were “irreversible.”

The centerpiece of the military cooperation are the aircraft carriers.

“Of all the U.S.’s efforts to cooperate with India’s military, the aircraft carrier project is the one with the biggest potential payout and could make the biggest difference to the regional balance of power,” said Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former U.S. adviser in New Delhi.

But U.S. concerns are growing about India’s military strategy. Experts worry New Delhi’s insistence on building complex military gear largely from scratch, a legacy of its period of nonalignment, has led to severe delays in modernizing its carriers, jet fighters and nuclear submarines and limited its ability to fight.



A Indian Defense Ministry spokesman declined to comment beyond saying that its aircraft carriers were “still under progress.” A Navy spokesman declined to comment. Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar recently reiterated a commitment to indigenous manufacturing, citing concerns that foreign supply of arms and ammunition could be cut off in a time of war. “I think self-dependence is very important,” he said.

China, meanwhile, is rapidly expanding its military forces. It launched its first aircraft carrier in 2012 and is building two more. Chinese state-owned companies have invested in strategic ports circling the Indian Ocean in Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Pakistan, that have resupplied its naval vessels. And China is now building its
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.

Chinese officials have rejected assertions that they are pursuing military objectives in the Indian Ocean, saying submarines resupplying in Sri Lanka were heading to the Gulf of Aden on antipiracy missions.

India, for its part, pledged funding last year for a new port in Iran where India’s own ships could potentially resupply for Indian Ocean missions. And it is seeking to match China’s naval force by adding two Indian-built carriers to the Russian one it now operates.

The first homemade Indian carrier, the INS Vikrant, has fallen short of expectations. An Indian state audit, released in July, found serious faults in its design and construction, from gear boxes to jet launching systems and air conditioning units.

The shipyard building the carrier, which has already cost $3 billion, “had no previous experience of warship construction” and is five years behind schedule, the audit said. India’s military sticks by its 2018 deadline.

Other experts said the ship’s hull was built before the navy had decided on some of the weapons systems, likely hampering its eventual performance. India’s homemade Tejas jet fighters, which are slated to fly from the Vikrant alongside squadrons of Russian jets, are also struggling to take off and land with an adequate payload on a simulated flight deck where they are being tested, people familiar with its testing said.

The upshot, these experts say: the carrier’s defensive flaws make it unlikely to able to operate in important theaters like the Persian Gulf or off the eastern coast of Africa, outside of the protective range of India’s land-based air force.

Still, the U.S. Navy plans to step up cooperation, pinning its hopes on India’s second homemade carrier, which promises to be far larger and contain more advanced technology. While carriers are losing their relevancy with the proliferation of cheap antiship missiles and advanced attack submarines, they are still likely to remain at the core of most major navies for some decades.

Write to Daniel Stacey at [email protected]

Appeared in the Dec. 01, 2016, print edition as 'India’s Naval Buildup Is Set Back.'
 
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delft

Brigadier
Very much OT, but in answer on posts above, from today's Marine Forum Daily News:
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18 April
INDIA

The Indian Navy is „likely to within the next two to three months“ approach the government with a proposal on acquisition of a second indigenous aircraft carrier ... MoD hesitant due to huge costs
(rmks: IAC-2 „Vishval“ planned for some time but in late 2016, said to be delayed „well into the 2030s“)
And when the Indians expect "well into the 2030s" .......
 
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