The War in the Ukraine

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
With regards to what @Surpluswarrior talked about, I would not say everything was smooth. A lot of people say that Russia should have put the T-72B2 into service instead of wasting time on the cheapened out T-72B3 for example.

As for the reasons for the lack of artillery upgrades there is a multitude of reasons. But a lot of it was politics I think. The Msta used a chassis made at Omsk based on the T-80 and back then the Russian government had a policy to phase out the T-80 in favor of T-72 based platforms like T-90. After poor performance of T-80 in Chechnya where it did not perform any better than the much cheaper T-72.
The factory which made the actual artillery units by mating them to the chassis was also owned by a private concern and they basically kept embezzling money all the time. A huge amount of the problems in the Russian MIC were due to the catastrophic privatizations done in the 1990s.

All the new platforms like Armata, Kurganets, and Boomerang are delayed. Kurganets is not even the worst case I am afraid. Boomerang is the worst since they decided to change the size of the vehicle and make it larger. So they basically had to redesign the whole thing. The heads of the factory which made Kurganets were indeed arrested on corruption charges. Seems like they squirrel away the money instead of upgrading the factory for Kurganets production like they were supposed to. But the factory is the same one which built the BMD-4M and BMP-3 in many hundreds for quite a cheap price. So it was not all bad. The BMD-4M in particular replaced the BMD-4 which was costing a bundle and not being much better than prior vehicles and did it quite successfully being both better and cheaper than the original BMD-4 made at Volgograd. Mind you the poor performance of the factory at Volgograd is why programs like the Sprut, which is also made there, are so terribly delayed.

I have also heard all sorts of reasons for T-14 being delayed. The engine lifetime was not up to scratch initially. And then that they had problems with the electronics. When you consider that the T-90M was delayed for almost two years just because they wanted to fix the bugs in the automatic target tracking system in it, that is hardly surprising. The T-14 is way worse since it needs basically way more automation and gadgetry to get it to work smoothly.

I think one of the issues which cost the Russians quite a lot in this engagement was the lack of large enough numbers of modern radios and communications equipment. But that was a known problem, even the Minister of Defense complained about it a couple years ago. Still they never managed to solve it properly. The owners of the plant were cheapening out by using Chinese components in the radios, the Russian government caught them doing it, and then they had to use Russian components, but they never got the production rate up. The Russian MIC is really weak in electronics, the expertise is spread all over the place among several private conglomerates, and they neither necessarily want the same thing the government wants, nor do they have the critical mass and capital to actually improve their material conditions. Kind of a mess really. The abilities do exist in Russia to do basically everything they need to a degree, but they are spread all over the place.
 

Nill

New Member
Registered Member
With regards to what @Surpluswarrior talked about, I would not say everything was smooth. A lot of people say that Russia should have put the T-72B2 into service instead of wasting time on the cheapened out T-72B3 for example.

As for the reasons for the lack of artillery upgrades there is a multitude of reasons. But a lot of it was politics I think. The Msta used a chassis made at Omsk based on the T-80 and back then the Russian government had a policy to phase out the T-80 in favor of T-72 based platforms like T-90. After poor performance of T-80 in Chechnya where it did not perform any better than the much cheaper T-72.
The factory which made the actual artillery units by mating them to the chassis was also owned by a private concern and they basically kept embezzling money all the time. A huge amount of the problems in the Russian MIC were due to the catastrophic privatizations done in the 1990s.

All the new platforms like Armata, Kurganets, and Boomerang are delayed. Kurganets is not even the worst case I am afraid. Boomerang is the worst since they decided to change the size of the vehicle and make it larger. So they basically had to redesign the whole thing. The heads of the factory which made Kurganets were indeed arrested on corruption charges. Seems like they squirrel away the money instead of upgrading the factory for Kurganets production like they were supposed to. But the factory is the same one which built the BMD-4M and BMP-3 in many hundreds for quite a cheap price. So it was not all bad. The BMD-4M in particular replaced the BMD-4 which was costing a bundle and not being much better than prior vehicles and did it quite successfully being both better and cheaper than the original BMD-4 made at Volgograd. Mind you the poor performance of the factory at Volgograd is why programs like the Sprut, which is also made there, are so terribly delayed.

I have also heard all sorts of reasons for T-14 being delayed. The engine lifetime was not up to scratch initially. And then that they had problems with the electronics. When you consider that the T-90M was delayed for almost two years just because they wanted to fix the bugs in the automatic target tracking system in it, that is hardly surprising. The T-14 is way worse since it needs basically way more automation and gadgetry to get it to work smoothly.

I think one of the issues which cost the Russians quite a lot in this engagement was the lack of large enough numbers of modern radios and communications equipment. But that was a known problem, even the Minister of Defense complained about it a couple years ago. Still they never managed to solve it properly. The owners of the plant were cheapening out by using Chinese components in the radios, the Russian government caught them doing it, and then they had to use Russian components, but they never got the production rate up. The Russian MIC is really weak in electronics, the expertise is spread all over the place among several private conglomerates, and they neither necessarily want the same thing the government wants, nor do they have the critical mass and capital to actually improve their material conditions. Kind of a mess really. The abilities do exist in Russia to do basically everything they need to a degree, but they are spread all over the place.
What is the state of the t-15?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Big mistake in training. Thought of the Wagner PMC like a Taliban like force. Except they had artillery, air support, ATGMs and tanks. By @milchronicles.


The Ukrainian Armed Forces are suffering heavy losses in Bakhmut due to the NATO COIN tactics. What does it mean?

The servicemen of the 71st, 58th and 53rd brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who were captured in early and mid-November near Bakhmut say that the training course in the UK and on the territory of Ukraine, with the support of instructors from the USA, Canada and Australia, was not designed for intense battles and harms the Ukrainian infantry.

According to the Military Chronicle, the soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine underwent training under the NATO COIN program (from the English term Counterinsurgency - counter-guerrilla war). The COIN program was created to fight "non-state forces" and insurgents and does not imply that the enemy has effective artillery and heavy weapons, which the Russian Armed Forces have in abundance.

In addition, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not conduct a full six-month training course. For assault units, an accelerated course was held in 20 days, and for ordinary infantry, training was completed in two weeks.

After the courses, Ukrainian servicemen trained according to COIN standards began to die en masse in battles. At first, losses were recorded in the Kherson direction, but now the most massive losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are observed in the Artyomovsky and Krasnolimansky directions, where the forces of the southern grouping of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were transferred.

Due to the heavy losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Bakhmut in September, October and November, American instructors were sent to the units of the 30th, 53rd and 71st brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, who were instructed to help with the management of the Ukrainian infantry and reduce the level of losses.

According to the prisoners, the training of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in COIN tactics, both abroad and at the Yavoriv training ground, was built around actions in small mobile groups. At the same time, the main areas of preparation were maneuvers on light vehicles (the so-called war of pickups), storming buildings and working out the filtering of civilians.

Earlier, the Military Chronicle already wrote about the
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when planning counterattacks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Bakhmut. This was due precisely to a misunderstanding of the capabilities of the RF Armed Forces and the Wagner PMC, which have a large number of artillery and heavy equipment.
 
Last edited:

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Big mistake in training. Thought of the Wagner PMC like a Taliban like force. Except they had artillery, air support, ATGMs and tanks. By @milchronicles.


The Ukrainian Armed Forces are suffering heavy losses in Bakhmut due to the NATO COIN tactics. What does it mean?

The servicemen of the 71st, 58th and 53rd brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who were captured in early and mid-November near Bakhmut say that the training course in the UK and on the territory of Ukraine, with the support of instructors from the USA, Canada and Australia, was not designed for intense battles and harms the Ukrainian infantry.

According to the Military Chronicle, the soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine underwent training under the NATO COIN program (from the English term Counterinsurgency - counter-guerrilla war). The COIN program was created to fight "non-state forces" and insurgents and does not imply that the enemy has effective artillery and heavy weapons, which the Russian Armed Forces have in abundance.

In addition, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not conduct a full six-month training course. For assault units, an accelerated course was held in 20 days, and for ordinary infantry, training was completed in two weeks.

After the courses, Ukrainian servicemen trained according to COIN standards began to die en masse in battles. At first, losses were recorded in the Kherson direction, but now the most massive losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are observed in the Artyomovsky and Krasnolimansky directions, where the forces of the southern grouping of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were transferred.

Due to the heavy losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Bakhmut in September, October and November, American instructors were sent to the units of the 30th, 53rd and 71st brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, who were instructed to help with the management of the Ukrainian infantry and reduce the level of losses.

According to the prisoners, the training of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in COIN tactics, both abroad and at the Yavoriv training ground, was built around actions in small mobile groups. At the same time, the main areas of preparation were maneuvers on light vehicles (the so-called war of pickups), storming buildings and working out the filtering of civilians.

Earlier, the Military Chronicle already wrote about the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
when planning counterattacks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Bakhmut. This was due precisely to a misunderstanding of the capabilities of the RF Armed Forces and the Wagner PMC, which have a large number of artillery and heavy equipment.

This is the mistake by US PMC and Ukrainian forces thinking the LPR, DPR and Wagner being some kind of insurgent Taliban forces when they are in fact, a self contained modern army with tanks, aerial and artillery support. Raids by technicals are quickly spotted by drones and hit with devastating precision guided fire. The mistake was made worst when the Mozart and the Ukrainians directly retreated to the headquarters and barracks, Wagner managed to trace them to these locations, and opened fire at their HQ and barracks with heavy artillery and rockets.

The front of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Bakhmut may collapse due to the mistake of US officers: details

On November 25, units of the 58th motorized infantry, 54th separate mechanized and 71st jaeger brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine tried to attack the positions of Wagner PMCs east of Bakhmut. According to the Military Chronicle, the attack on the positions of PMCs was planned from the beginning of November, but its implementation was suspended due to high losses.

After the arrival in Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) of the employees of the US PMC "Mozart" (Mozart Group), which the Military Chronicle
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, as well as reinforcements of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the Kherson direction, attack planning resumed under the leadership of American officers.

However, when trying to conduct an operation and open the firing area of the Wagner PMC and the NM of the DPR, at least 75 (according to other sources - 95) servicemen of the 13th, 15th and 16th motorized infantry battalions of the 58th brigade, as well as militants from the 46th assault battalion, were killed. Donbass”, which indicates a misunderstanding of the combat capabilities of the allied forces by the US military.

When the units retreated to their original positions, with the help of drones, they managed to establish the location of field headquarters and makeshift barracks, equipped both in Bakhmut and in the nearest suburbs. After additional reconnaissance of the targets, the “orchestra” managed to hit the headquarters and warehouses with weapons of the 241st Territorial Defense Brigade in Berkhovka and Paraskovievka, as well as a number of other critical facilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the suburbs of Bakhmut, including the fire control center of the 44th Artillery Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Chasovoy Yar.

According to the radio interception of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, after the strike, the Ukrainian military urgently requested reinforcements at the headquarters of the Vostok command. The losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the strikes, according to preliminary data, ranged from 150 to 250 people, which is especially noticeable against the backdrop of the flow of “two hundredths” since the beginning of November. Disrupted communications and command and control have already led to the disorganization of the defense of the outskirts of the city, and while maintaining the pace of the Wagner PMC offensive, this could provoke the collapse of the front of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the northern, northeastern, eastern and southwestern sectors.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
This is the mistake by US PMC and Ukrainian forces thinking the LPR, DPR and Wagner being some kind of insurgent Taliban forces when they are in fact, a self contained modern army with tanks, aerial and artillery support. Raids by technicals are quickly spotted by drones and hit with devastating precision guided fire. The mistake was made worst when the Mozart and the Ukrainians directly retreated to the headquarters and barracks, Wagner managed to trace them to these locations, and opened fire at their HQ and barracks with heavy artillery and rockets.

The front of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Bakhmut may collapse due to the mistake of US officers: details

On November 25, units of the 58th motorized infantry, 54th separate mechanized and 71st jaeger brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine tried to attack the positions of Wagner PMCs east of Bakhmut. According to the Military Chronicle, the attack on the positions of PMCs was planned from the beginning of November, but its implementation was suspended due to high losses.

After the arrival in Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) of the employees of the US PMC "Mozart" (Mozart Group), which the Military Chronicle
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, as well as reinforcements of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the Kherson direction, attack planning resumed under the leadership of American officers.

However, when trying to conduct an operation and open the firing area of the Wagner PMC and the NM of the DPR, at least 75 (according to other sources - 95) servicemen of the 13th, 15th and 16th motorized infantry battalions of the 58th brigade, as well as militants from the 46th assault battalion, were killed. Donbass”, which indicates a misunderstanding of the combat capabilities of the allied forces by the US military.

When the units retreated to their original positions, with the help of drones, they managed to establish the location of field headquarters and makeshift barracks, equipped both in Bakhmut and in the nearest suburbs. After additional reconnaissance of the targets, the “orchestra” managed to hit the headquarters and warehouses with weapons of the 241st Territorial Defense Brigade in Berkhovka and Paraskovievka, as well as a number of other critical facilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the suburbs of Bakhmut, including the fire control center of the 44th Artillery Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Chasovoy Yar.

According to the radio interception of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, after the strike, the Ukrainian military urgently requested reinforcements at the headquarters of the Vostok command. The losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the strikes, according to preliminary data, ranged from 150 to 250 people, which is especially noticeable against the backdrop of the flow of “two hundredths” since the beginning of November. Disrupted communications and command and control have already led to the disorganization of the defense of the outskirts of the city, and while maintaining the pace of the Wagner PMC offensive, this could provoke the collapse of the front of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the northern, northeastern, eastern and southwestern sectors.
How the hell do they even make such mistakes by now.

Like, shouldn't they be somewhat familiar with the Wagner group by now??? Not to mention all the US ISR and the likes.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
Hmmm. It’s like the US has lost its nerve the moment they are up against a force that isn’t a middle eastern insurgent

Or more likely like most stories coming from pro-Russian sources this is also BS.

Russians have been trying to capture Bakhmut for months at this point despite the claims that they are vastly superior force... if Wagner was any good they wouldn't use human wave tactics like this was year 1915.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
How the hell do they even make such mistakes by now.

Like, shouldn't they be somewhat familiar with the Wagner group by now??? Not to mention all the US ISR and the likes.
Hard to unlearn 20 years of "modern warfare experience" fighting such advanced adversaries that are professionally trained in goat herding and farming. You know those Taliban uses AK47s, that's basically fighting the Russian conscript right? Since they use Russian guns.

When they lose to the Taliban with the heaviest weapon being a Toyota pickup, how did you think they were going to do vs professional Russians with artillery and air support?
 
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