Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Good points, but is making people even more pissed off at China worth it? There's always a tradeoff. This time there's plausible deniability due to the Pelosi visit; what's the excuse next time? I don't think this response to Pelosi visiting will normalize blocking off large swaths of the Strait anytime soon.
Who said that there is need of excuse? China's aim with these exercises is to break the status quo and start making them as routine exercises. Does China need an excuse to make drills in Xinjiang? Same thing applies here

I already said that after Taiwan's idiotic sentiment calms down after Pelosi's visit, that they are the biggest loser in this. Expect even more bad news coming in the following weeks/months. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot lol

Whenever China does something it does it for permanent benefits, thinking that it will do these exercises and then don't do them again is something that only Taiwan would come up with. I suggest waking up to reality and face the new status quo instead of self-blinding yourself
 

NeutralWarrior

Junior Member
Registered Member
AUG5: The U.S. military has dispatched at least 7 reconnaissance and early warning aircraft of various types to the airspace around Taiwan Island.

AUG5 US-Taiwan.png


U.S. military strengthens aerial reconnaissance of PLA military exercises. On August 5, the U.S. military has dispatched at least 7 reconnaissance and early warning aircraft of various types to the airspace around Taiwan Island, China. These include 1 RC-135V, 1 RC-135S, 3 P-8A, 1 E-3G and 1 U-2S, supported by 6 tankers. These movements of the US military also show that today's PLA exercises will be more complex and exciting.

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weig2000

Captain
Wonder about that though. Might be the case on the civilian side, but the AA guns are controlled by the military, hehe.

People who suggest that mainland China can punish Taiwan by taking Kinmen never really understand the cross-Strait affairs. DPP would probably be quite happy to get rid of Kinmen and label PRC as aggressor to appeal to the world (or "the rest of the world"). Besides, Kinmen will neither help PLA to take Taiwan Island or prevent PLA from taking over Taiwan Island. Not to mention why PRC has never really wanted to take over Kinmen since 1950s in the first place.

In fact, if the Operation of Liberating Taiwan starts, PLA will mostly likely leave Kinmen alone, except maybe to send a plain cloth PLA official to Kinmen in advance to tell the ROC force there to refrain from shooting at Xiamen or, if they have to fake some action, shoot to some designated zone. I'm sure POC force there will comply instead of engaging in some pointless shooting to seek self-destruction to no avail.

Of course, after PLA lands on Taiwan, ROC force on Kinmen will cease and desist. No blood will be shed there.
 

Chilled_k6

Junior Member
Registered Member
The current development reminds me a lot about the Beiping Model and the Tianjin model during 解放战争 (I dislike the term Chinese Civil War for various reasons). Now I actually think armed reunification is actually not that necessary and we may actually see peaceful reunification in the next 5 - 10 years, in line with what Xi and many CPC higher-ups have been suggesting in the past many years. It seems like this has always been the plan, things have just become obvious to us lay-folks after the Pelosi event - I was a firm believer of AR prior to this, but now I think a peaceful reunification is a much more powerful game plan with profound impacts to the balance of power in West Pacific.

I'll explain my rationale, starting with a bit of history:

In the 3rd phase of 解放战争, PingJin campaign(平津战役), PLA's goal is to liberate Beiping (Beijing's previous name during ROC peroid) and the costal city of Tianjin. Beiping was a tricky matter as its liberation has high political significance as it's been the capital for a few dynasties in China (duh - which is why it's the current Chinese capital) and there are a lot of historical sites that needed to be preserved. Mao did not want to forcefully take the city, although he could. KMT's commander in Beiping thought he could hold off the PLA for some time and use that as leverage for subsequent negotiations, and the KMT defender of Tianjin was a trusted subordinate of his, and Tianjin was especially heavily fortified and defended by the KMT troops.

Long story short, PLA surrounded Beiping and negotiated with Fu (KMT commander defending Beiping) and Fu would not surrender believing he still has a chance to play this out. In the mean time, PLA attacked Tianjin after a few rounds of negotiations and steamrolled the KMT defendants, and captured the KMT commander alive within 29 hours of fighting and eliminated 130,000 KMT defenders. So the Tianjin model summarized in a few words would be giving you a heads up then properly f**king your s**t up.

Having seen his most trusted subordinate properly f**ked in Tianjin, Fu essentially gave up and surrendered, and agreed to laid down arms and let PLA in under immense psychological and military pressure from the PLA and CPC spies. Mao was able to take Beiping without firing a single bullet. That is the Beiping model - a classic example of 不战而屈人之兵 (a force that can defeat opponents without fighting) described in the Art of War.

I believe a combination of Tianjin and Beiping model has always been the plan for Taiwan. Although AR would seem satisfying to a lot of people and will showcase the capability of the PLA to the world, it is not the most ideal solution.

Remember - 主不可以怒而兴师,将不可以愠而致战。合于利而动,不合于利而止 (lords and generals shall not wage war due to anger/rage, only strike when there is tangible benefit, make no move if there is nothing to be gained) - CPC's ultimate goal is the great rejuvenation of the Chinese civilization, and a key pillar in this goal is to undermine US dominance in West Pacific. Reunify Taiwan under the most ideal situation contributes to this goal; AR can put up a good show, but it is not the most ideal solution and has significant risks and drawbacks - you can never fully control the fallout of a war, wars can have direct and indirect impact on nations' fates for many decades and you will never know if it ultimately serves your purpose or not. (Think about how the Vietnam War contributed to the onset of hippies and civil rights movement, then the woke culture, and subsequently the current trans-movement. A US general in the 1960s would not have imagined that the decisions to send Marines to South Vietnam may mean that a non-insignificant portion of the US armed forces in the 2030s may be made up of transgendered people... Although this example is a bit exaggerated lol but you get my point)

Now how would peaceful reunification be achieved? By combining both Beiping and Tianjin model: immense military, economic, and psychological pressure, Taiwan may actually cave in and give up in a few years when its people can no loner bear the suffering. If the type of exercise we are witnessing these couple of days from the PLA becomes routine, and happens like 2 - 3 times a year for the next couple of years, how would that impact Taiwan's economy? If Taiwan's infrastructures are constantly under cyber-attack (apparently Taiwan's police system has been attacked and it is not currently functional), normal people will feel that (I really felt it when Rogers went down for a full day a little bit ago in Canada). What if every couple of weeks a few PLA drones fly over Taiwan in the middle of the night over populated cities and make huge noises, do they shoot them down or not? What if every couple of months PLA started mass assembling and pretend to launch a AR which forces all Taiwanese people to have to go hide in shelters? There are literally so many military options to make everyone in Taiwan suffer more and more each day, and it can just get worse by each day.

And we are not even counting the economic front. Decades of 惠台 (benefit-Taiwan) policies from CPC is such a screwed-up and brilliant move, regardless of their original intensions, the fact of the matter is that these policies made so much of Taiwan's economy to be dependent on the mainland. If you simply take these policies away, Taiwan would suffer, and we are not even talking about actual sanctions. I'm not going to list all the possibilities but you can imagine (TSMC and the semi-conductor industry alone cannot feed all Taiwanese).

In an extreme scenario, maybe in 5 years, your normal Taiwanese can experience what it is like right to live in Russia in 1991. After all, no business and capital would want to stay on a tiny island that is at risk of suffering armed conflict and they would gradually pull out, all the rich Taiwanese as well - which is not the majority of the Taiwanese. What would be left?

Look at Sri Lanka, I'm pretty sure it was one of the richest nations in South Asia by per capital GDP a few years ago, but Covid and the war in Ukraine has completely changed the fate of this nation. We don't know how much suffering CPC can bring to Taiwan through military and economic pressure, but I don't think it can be taken lightly. By then, if Taiwan just agrees to reunify with China, then this could all disappear, do you think the Taiwanese people would want that? No one can be 100% sure, a lot of things can change really quickly in the span of a few years (e.g., think about PLAN in 2011 vs 2021, or US - China relationships 2017 vs 2022) but let's just say that even if by then Taiwan still does not want to peacefully reunify with the mainland, these kind of things can make AR so much more easier than today.

I think the US has really left itself in a very awkward position. With Pelosi's visit there is literally not much else they could do to about the Taiwan card other than declaring Taiwan's independence formally or station troops directly on Taiwan. I don't think they want to do those things. But Pelosi's visit enables CPC to do all of the things I mentioned above, and the US can't really do much about it unless they directly intervene militarily. The US military may intervene during a scenario of AR, but the likelihood of them intervening militarily when the CPC and PLA are doing the things I mentioned above is really slim. I don't think the US has any more cards to play after this, from now on, it is the CPC that will be making future moves and the US can only follow when it comes to Taiwan.

I kind of feel like this is CPC's plan for a while now, contingencies have been set up to initiate the a certain process on Taiwan, and they're just waiting for US to make its move - by crossing the "red line" for domestic political purposes, China will exploit this opportunity and kickstart the planned contingency. WJP's recent article suggested this as well.

So yeah, that's basically some of the things I thought about in the past 2 days. I guess that is my prediction lol - peaceful reunification is possible within the next 5 - 10 years, but by then yall probably would no longer care about Taiwan as it is no longer that relevant

Do you agree? Disagree? Any thoughts?

Maybe. In terms of track record, economic blockades done by the US have not been successful in bringing down the target countries or their government to it's knees, like the geographic parallel in Cuba.

If they normalize these military exercises and step up it's intensity, I think China's goals for them are even more short term. The obvious would be training the military for AR and the geopolitical competition with the US. With regards to Taiwan, they'll aim to pressure the Taiwanese population to change course from the DPP in the 2024 Taiwan elections. If after a year and half of pressure the Taiwanese still stick with the DPP or some other pro-independence faction, I think China will fully decide on AR. Then it'll just be a matter of timing of when to execute.

With US power either stagnating in some metrics and outright declining in others, and Taiwanese independence forces knowing their time is short, I personally think events will conspire towards AR. China will not bear Taiwan's insolence for too long. In the meantime, China will continue using this Golden Age of military developments & technology to sprint ahead and making AR easily the most attractive option.

As for the current exercises, it's more like a soft blockade so far, not enough to really disrupt day to day life in Taiwan. We'll have to wait and see how China ramp up the pressure currently and in the months ahead, which I am fully expecting.
 

efficient_kiwi

New Member
Registered Member
Who said that there is need of excuse? China's aim with these exercises is to break the status quo and start making them as routine exercises. Does China need an excuse to make drills in Xinjiang? Same thing applies here

I already said that after Taiwan's idiotic sentiment calms down after Pelosi's visit, that they are the biggest loser in this. Expect even more bad news coming in the following weeks/months. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot lol

Whenever China does something it does it for permanent benefits, thinking that it will do these exercises and then don't do them again is something that only Taiwan would come up with. I suggest waking up to reality and face the new status quo instead of self-blinding yourself
You misunderstood me. I was talking about the international reaction to disrupting maritime trade. Who cares about Xinjiang? Last I checked world trade doesn't go through the Taklamakan desert.
 

efficient_kiwi

New Member
Registered Member
People who suggest that mainland China can punish Taiwan by taking Kinmen never really understand the cross-Strait affairs. DPP would probably be quite happy to get rid of Kinmen and label PRC as aggressor to appeal to the world (or "the rest of the world"). Besides, Kinmen will neither help PLA to take Taiwan Island or prevent PLA from taking over Taiwan Island. Not to mention why PRC has never really wanted to take over Kinmen since 1950s in the first place.

In fact, if the Operation of Liberating Taiwan starts, PLA will mostly likely leave Kinmen alone, except maybe to send a plain cloth PLA official to Kinmen in advance to tell the ROC force there to refrain from shooting at Xiamen or, if they have to fake some action, shoot to some designated zone. I'm sure POC force there will comply instead of engaging in some pointless shooting to seek self-destruction to no avail.

Of course, after PLA lands on Taiwan, ROC force on Kinmen will cease and desist. No blood will be shed there.
Fully agree. If we draw parellels to the current Russo-Ukrainian War, it is very much Taiwan's Donbass without the industry. They have always been the ones most attached to China, and that's to be expected. Taking the islands further distances the ROC from China, and also might prompt massive inflowing of military funding and training to Taiwan. Not that it will make much difference, but still, sub-optimal.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
India-US to hold military exercise near China border amid rising tensions with China
“This time it is a very important exercise because the Indian side will be showcasing their high-altitude warfare strategies, while the Americans will be showcasing a number of technologies that can be used in such scenarios. This exercise has been planned in such a way that both sides come together for any scenario,” a source said.
US-India high altitude exercise? So India wants to show to the US how high altitude warfare is done. And USA is essentially just doing weapons promotion.

I just think that India might teach the US the Bollywood experience of Galwan. And the US might teach India the Hollywood experience of Afghanistan.

End result is nothing improves on both sides. But at least America gets to sell more overpriced stuff to India.

Jai Hind!
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
People who suggest that mainland China can punish Taiwan by taking Kinmen never really understand the cross-Strait affairs. DPP would probably be quite happy to get rid of Kinmen and label PRC as aggressor to appeal to the world (or "the rest of the world"). Besides, Kinmen will neither help PLA to take Taiwan Island or prevent PLA from taking over Taiwan Island. Not to mention why PRC has never really wanted to take over Kinmen since 1950s in the first place.

In fact, if the Operation of Liberating Taiwan starts, PLA will mostly likely leave Kinmen alone, except maybe to send a plain cloth PLA official to Kinmen in advance to tell the ROC force there to refrain from shooting at Xiamen or, if they have to fake some action, shoot to some designated zone. I'm sure POC force there will comply instead of engaging in some pointless shooting to seek self-destruction to no avail.

Of course, after PLA lands on Taiwan, ROC force on Kinmen will cease and desist. No blood will be shed there.

The economic and/or military value of Kinmen et al. isn't the same as it's diplomatic value.

It's value in the diplomatic fight to kerb stomp Taiwan's national sovereignty is to trespass these lines with impunity. However far away from Taipei those territorial limits may lie, borders are borders. But yet ... the further they are from Taiwan proper, the less likely such incursions will result in actual shootings. (even better if local populace is pro-China and able to put in fifth column actions to sway/stay the garrison).

A flare fired at a PLA drone over Kinmen might be a SAM at same drone over Taipei.

Even better for China if these overflights are non-aggressive in nature. SPAR19 flies into Taiwan and salami slices Taiwan's Independence? We fly over Taiwan with a big ass China Flag on an unarmed helo and dare you to shoot it down. If all Taiwan can do is huff and puff, mission accomplished. If we can repeat it, it becomes the new normal.

The optics on this I'd daresay is better than that of repeated missile barrages and military exercises over and around Taiwan.

Being threatened and browbeaten isn't likely to sway the pro-DPP crowd towards reunification. If anything it's more likely to harden resolves and polarise the pro- and anti- camps. I guess great if we're trying to create internal friction but do note that pro-China support within Taiwan is waning with each passing generation and reinforced by each succeeding generation raised on being told China bad while hunkering in air raid shelters because of Military exercise #126412. Even the world will grow weary ...

OTOH Being constantly overflown by flags and phamplets and seeing your anti-Unification government unable to do anything about it might actually make them more likely to resign to what is written on the wall.

Taking these outlying islands that sit within spitting distance of China - IF that can be done bloodlessly by popular local uprising or "surrender" - is I feel another good platform to whittle away at the resolve of the Taiwanese.

Didn't China have plans to link Kinmen by bridge to the (real) mainland?
Didn't Kinmen residents complain that their income is largely reduced due to the local garrison being shrunk to 1/4 of what it was?

Takeover, revitalise, invigorate Kinmen and it's more good optics that China builds while US destroys
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The economic and/or military value of Kinmen et al. isn't the same as it's diplomatic value.

It's value in the diplomatic fight to kerb stomp Taiwan's national sovereignty is to trespass these lines with impunity. However far away from Taipei those territorial limits may lie, borders are borders. But yet ... the further they are from Taiwan proper, the less likely such incursions will result in actual shootings. (even better if local populace is pro-China and able to put in fifth column actions to sway/stay the garrison).

A flare fired at a PLA drone over Kinmen might be a SAM at same drone over Taipei.

Even better for China if these overflights are non-aggressive in nature. SPAR19 flies into Taiwan and salami slices Taiwan's Independence? We fly over Taiwan with a big ass China Flag on an unarmed helo and dare you to shoot it down. If all Taiwan can do is huff and puff, mission accomplished. If we can repeat it, it becomes the new normal.

The optics on this I'd daresay is better than that of repeated missile barrages and military exercises over and around Taiwan.

Being threatened and browbeaten isn't likely to sway the pro-DPP crowd towards reunification. If anything it's more likely to harden resolves and polarise the pro- and anti- camps. I guess great if we're trying to create internal friction but do note that pro-China support within Taiwan is waning with each passing generation and reinforced by each succeeding generation raised on being told China bad while hunkering in air raid shelters because of Military exercise #126412. Even the world will grow weary ...

OTOH Being constantly overflown by flags and phamplets and seeing your anti-Unification government unable to do anything about it might actually make them more likely to resign to what is written on the wall.

Taking these outlying islands that sit within spitting distance of China - IF that can be done bloodlessly by popular local uprising or "surrender" - is I feel another good platform to whittle away at the resolve of the Taiwanese.

Didn't China have plans to link Kinmen by bridge to the (real) mainland?
Didn't Kinmen residents complain that their income is largely reduced due to the local garrison being shrunk to 1/4 of what it was?

Takeover, revitalise, invigorate Kinmen and it's more good optics that China builds while US destroys

There is current no value in taking Kinmen or any of the outlying islands close to China.
There is no diplomatic, military or strategic value, and certainly no PR or propaganda value.

The people on those outlying islands will either be indifferent to or even support being taken by China. The rest of the people on Taiwan will use it as a way of galvanizing themselves against China even further.
It will also enable the government on Taiwan to more easily "give up" their claim on those islands and thus in turn reinforce their political position of being "Taiwan" rather than the "Republic of China".



If anything I would say that taking those outlying islands is an actively bad idea from China's pov, and that actually keeping them in play as under the control of the govt on Taiwan is more useful for China.
 
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