Ladakh Flash Point

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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Quote one expletive from my end.
Most posters here are kids with free time , living in a bubble, who have no idea about what the actual world thinks of china or Chinese actions.
No harm in my detailing a few of my experiences in China.
The last 100 pages are just full of anti India racist comments from the Chinese with the house Pakistanis doing their bit.
As a Indian i would welcome the experiences of Chinese who have actually traveled to India and have a nuanced understanding of the world.
But thats my thinking, i might be wrong and ppl prefer their bubbles.
You're arrogance and very assumptive with regards to your own perceptions and viewpoints about China and is shocked that your idiotic opinion isn't taken at all seriously. What are you a f.. Ng truth teller, a missionary who's purpose is to inform us of the ills and evil of our country that we're apparently so oblivious from? If that statement does not smack of sheer arrogance combined with mother f.. ignorance then buddy you ought to have your head examined.

Bubbles? Lol are we living in such bubbles that Chinese citizens are the most traveled people in the world which is why countries from Asia to America are now having problems with their key tourism industries that rely heavily from Chinese tourists? Or how about the number of schools, universities, colleges from Asia, Europe, U.K.to North America (U.S. Canada) that have basically gotten fat and rich from the hundreds of thousands of Chinese students who pay exorbitant amount of tuition fees only to be accused of Chinese Spies? Lol

Your comment is actually f.. offensive and you don't actually know Jack shit what the f you're talking about. And us Chinese people are not morons in distress that need some divine revelation or truth because we know who we are and what we are, and most especially not from some ignorant deranged nobody like you.
 

tallgamer

New Member
Registered Member
You're arrogance and very assumptive with regards to your own perceptions and viewpoints about China and is shocked that your idiotic opinion isn't taken at all seriously. What are you a f.. Ng truth teller, a missionary who's purpose is to inform us of the ills and evil of our country that we're apparently so oblivious from? If that statement does not smack of sheer arrogance combined with mother f.. ignorance then buddy you ought to have your head examined.

Bubbles? Lol are we living in such bubbles that Chinese citizens are the most traveled people in the world which is why countries from Asia to America are now having problems with their key tourism industries that rely heavily from Chinese tourists? Or how about the number of schools, universities, colleges from Asia, Europe, U.K.to North America (U.S. Canada) that have basically gotten fat and rich from the hundreds of thousands of Chinese students who pay exorbitant amount of tuition fees only to be accused of Chinese Spies? Lol

Your comment is actually f.. offensive and you don't actually know Jack shit what the f you're talking about. And us Chinese people are not morons in distress that need some divine revelation or truth because we know who we are and what we are, and most especially not from some ignorant deranged nobody like you.
Now you just sound deranged. Take care.
 

Abhimanyu

New Member
Registered Member
I agree. It's also good to work against people like tallgamer and jai hinds trying to build narratives based on lies. That's important too. If not for that then SDF at least would also believe Taiwan shot down a PLAAF Su-35, that hundreds of PLA soldiers were killed by Indians because a 2012 Chinese documentary footage of PLA graveyards in Xinjiang and Tibet were shown on TV. That India would be superpower by 2012 2020 and that China is this that and everything they can make up and exaggerate.

So while I agree with you on these things you mentioned, you are also missing a pretty significant part of the view. If not for so many Indians desperately wanting to shape "perceptions" based on lies and half truths, I don't think India would have anywhere near as much doubt and animosity from so many people and an increasing number of people outside of the western world.

Keeping in mind that the western world does not care for India one bit in its heart of hearts beyond empty cheap platitudes. And any increase in western surface "approval" of India is in no small part due to its political desire to oppose China's progress and the relative lack of negative focus it places on India. Those things do not stay constant and do not rely on truths or ground realities. I think it's worth remembering for sensible and forward thinking Indians.
Ougoah, India has been a victim of colonialism. But whether that should be the only basis in not being friends with west is not correct. China's current development has also been largely due to western companies investing/manufacturing in China. I do not take credit away from the chinese govt or its people in their hard work also. India wanted to take its own advantage by playing neutral between US and China till Galwan happened. Prior to Galwan, India's strategic soft play with west was largely to balance China's strategic friendship with Pakistan. Frankly I don't know what benefit did Galwan give to anyone. If there are right incentives in being friends with China, I am sure India will utilise them but currently I do not see them and in short term things will have their ups and downs. Longer term India and China will have to reconcile with the other's strategic strengths.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Prior to Galwan, India's strategic soft play with west was largely to balance China's strategic friendship with Pakistan. Frankly I don't know what benefit did Galwan give to anyone
You are wrong. This didnt start with Galwan.
This all story started with India revoking Article 370 which directly spat on Pakistan's and China's face.

After that move, everything which happened later and will happen in the future was set on rails. There was no surprise attack from China, not any strange or crazy reactions from Pakistan/China against India.

Unless India reinstitutes Article 370 then relations wont fundamentally improve.

If there are right incentives in being friends with China, I am sure India will utilise them but currently I do not see them and in short term things will have their ups and downs. Longer term India and China will have to reconcile with the other's strategic strengths.
The incentives were clear. China's low-cost, labour-intensive industries were relocating outside of China and it ready to redirect some of them to India which would had benefited tremendously from such a move.

Instead, India saw trade with China the Trump way (deficit bad, dont care, cut trade etc), sprinkle some nationalism (jai hind!), some racism, some US promises to India, and voilà you got what we have today.

Now, ASEAN has gotten these industries and also signed the RCEP. Unfortunately for India, by missing these 2 developments, it will now be left behind
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
India wanted to take its own advantage by playing neutral between US and China till Galwan happened. Prior to Galwan, India's strategic soft play with west was largely to balance China's strategic friendship with Pakistan. Frankly I don't know what benefit did Galwan give to anyone. If there are right incentives in being friends with China, I am sure India will utilise them but currently I do not see them and in short term things will have their ups and downs. Longer term India and China will have to reconcile with the other's strategic strengths.

Right there you are spot on.

This Ladakh crisis, what you referred to as "Galwan" in general, does not benefit China. It does not benefit China to flare up a border dispute it has been trying to offer demarcation and compromises to with India who refuses to settle it due to India wanting Aksai Chin and unwilling to compromise on any deal without Aksai Chin. It does not benefit China to go to war with India regardless of how positive a result may be for China. At best it sacrifices material, time, money, and lives to gain a slither of land - the remaining 20%. At worst it loses Aksai Chin. So why would China have done this. The answer is obvious, China didn't flare this thing up.

Believe me, Indian leaders do not want friendship or cooperation etc with China. They have reasons not to for sure, but please don't assume they have carried themselves in good faith wrt relations and tensions with China.

Galwan since it happened, can only be resolved by China in one way. Either China somehow gets India to demarcate, understand and accept that India will not get Aksai Chin and the details of where the border will be set probably will be between the blue line where China controls since 1962 and the end of China's official claims. Of course China will compromise as it had offered in the past, as long as China gets Aksai Chin. Failing this, since India will find it unacceptable, China will try to make this slither of land a buffer so that India has no access to patrolling or controlling any part of Aksai Chin. This is a work in progress and Indian troops surely still have not vacated certain parts of this narrow stretch.

A war does not benefit China. It does not want such a distraction from bigger goals. A tension with India also does not as China would not wish to divert forces and risk any multifront war. It was India with everything to gain by making increased patrols and moves on that slither of remaining disputed land in Ladakh (not incl Aksai Chin since that's been firmly controlled by China since the border war).

India considered its chances for salami slicing via patrolling and temporary structures within this stretch of land to be at worst responded to by China with diplomatic complaints and nothing more as China was distracted with covid outbreak in early 2020. It also considered that China would not escalate the conflict because salami slicing has been practiced by both with pretty good mutual understanding of how it works. India was half right on the latter. It simply did not expect a fairly strong reaction from China. Anyway the rest is history now.

Would both move forwards in good faith depends on how we finish this resolution. How is the buffer deal going to go for the rest of the area under standoff. How will demarcation attempts go. How will India and China play the extended geopolitical game now with the rest of the region etc. I do not have hopes that the two can form a better understanding and de-escalate the bigger underlying tensions that have come around since Doklam crisis and peaked with this one. Especially IF India and Pakistan tensions increase, China will almost certainly be backing Pakistan which would contribute to further unease between India and China.
 

Abhimanyu

New Member
Registered Member
You are wrong. This didnt start with Galwan.
This all story started with India revoking Article 370 which directly spat on Pakistan's and China's face.

After that move, everything which happened later and will happen in the future was set on rails. There was no surprise attack from China, not any strange or crazy reactions from Pakistan/China against India.

Unless India reinstitutes Article 370 then relations wont fundamentally improve.


The incentives were clear. China's low-cost, labour-intensive industries were relocating outside of China and it ready to redirect some of them to India which would had benefited tremendously from such a move.

Instead, India saw trade with China the Trump way (deficit bad, dont care, cut trade etc), sprinkle some nationalism (jai hind!), some racism, some US promises to India, and voilà you got what we have today.

Now, ASEAN has gotten these industries and also signed the RCEP. Unfortunately for India, by missing these 2 developments, it will now be left behind
Reference 370 we can agree to disagree. It is a provision in the Indian constitution and has no international agreements. Both LOC/LAC were also not impacted by it. However, China may have felt a need to react given its friendship with Pakistan.

Reference Low cost industries shifting to India, these probably didn't shift or were already leaving elsewhere. Having said that I need to see a case study on how many have shifted and how much have they benefitted ASEAN to gauge the profit/loss. It is a fair argument but needs to be examined/discussed in more detail.

RCEP has been debated exhaustively in India and in the larger scheme of things the benefits seem low for India. India has a lower manufacturing base than both China and ASEAN and it has less to export here. India will however be open if its issues are addressed at a later date and if not will be happy to let this opportunity bypass.
Right there you are spot on.

This Ladakh crisis, what you referred to as "Galwan" in general, does not benefit China. It does not benefit China to flare up a border dispute it has been trying to offer demarcation and compromises to with India who refuses to settle it due to India wanting Aksai Chin and unwilling to compromise on any deal without Aksai Chin. It does not benefit China to go to war with India regardless of how positive a result may be for China. At best it sacrifices material, time, money, and lives to gain a slither of land - the remaining 20%. At worst it loses Aksai Chin. So why would China have done this. The answer is obvious, China didn't flare this thing up.

Believe me, Indian leaders do not want friendship or cooperation etc with China. They have reasons not to for sure, but please don't assume they have carried themselves in good faith wrt relations and tensions with China.

Galwan since it happened, can only be resolved by China in one way. Either China somehow gets India to demarcate, understand and accept that India will not get Aksai Chin and the details of where the border will be set probably will be between the blue line where China controls since 1962 and the end of China's official claims. Of course China will compromise as it had offered in the past, as long as China gets Aksai Chin. Failing this, since India will find it unacceptable, China will try to make this slither of land a buffer so that India has no access to patrolling or controlling any part of Aksai Chin. This is a work in progress and Indian troops surely still have not vacated certain parts of this narrow stretch.

A war does not benefit China. It does not want such a distraction from bigger goals. A tension with India also does not as China would not wish to divert forces and risk any multifront war. It was India with everything to gain by making increased patrols and moves on that slither of remaining disputed land in Ladakh (not incl Aksai Chin since that's been firmly controlled by China since the border war).

India considered its chances for salami slicing via patrolling and temporary structures within this stretch of land to be at worst responded to by China with diplomatic complaints and nothing more as China was distracted with covid outbreak in early 2020. It also considered that China would not escalate the conflict because salami slicing has been practiced by both with pretty good mutual understanding of how it works. India was half right on the latter. It simply did not expect a fairly strong reaction from China. Anyway the rest is history now.

Would both move forwards in good faith depends on how we finish this resolution. How is the buffer deal going to go for the rest of the area under standoff. How will demarcation attempts go. How will India and China play the extended geopolitical game now with the rest of the region etc. I do not have hopes that the two can form a better understanding and de-escalate the bigger underlying tensions that have come around since Doklam crisis and peaked with this one. Especially IF India and Pakistan tensions increase, China will almost certainly be backing Pakistan which would contribute to further unease between India and China.

Ougoah, Thanks and I have seen this perspective. From an Indian perspective, war does not benefit India. India has been in its own crisis so being an aggressor against a much stronger enemy makes no sense for India. There is a perception of Modi diverting attention or Indian leaders being insensible but that does not make logic as any such act if was to be done would have been attempted in 2024 and not 2020 and against arch rivals rather than China given elections.

My theory and as you suggested in end China felt a need to react after article 370 on behalf of Pakistan as it has now a strategic relation with them. Yes, such a reaction or relation will cause unease in India.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Right there you are spot on.

This Ladakh crisis, what you referred to as "Galwan" in general, does not benefit China. It does not benefit China to flare up a border dispute it has been trying to offer demarcation and compromises to with India who refuses to settle it due to India wanting Aksai Chin and unwilling to compromise on any deal without Aksai Chin. It does not benefit China to go to war with India regardless of how positive a result may be for China. At best it sacrifices material, time, money, and lives to gain a slither of land - the remaining 20%. At worst it loses Aksai Chin. So why would China have done this. The answer is obvious, China didn't flare this thing up.

Believe me, Indian leaders do not want friendship or cooperation etc with China. They have reasons not to for sure, but please don't assume they have carried themselves in good faith wrt relations and tensions with China.

Galwan since it happened, can only be resolved by China in one way. Either China somehow gets India to demarcate, understand and accept that India will not get Aksai Chin and the details of where the border will be set probably will be between the blue line where China controls since 1962 and the end of China's official claims. Of course China will compromise as it had offered in the past, as long as China gets Aksai Chin. Failing this, since India will find it unacceptable, China will try to make this slither of land a buffer so that India has no access to patrolling or controlling any part of Aksai Chin. This is a work in progress and Indian troops surely still have not vacated certain parts of this narrow stretch.

A war does not benefit China. It does not want such a distraction from bigger goals. A tension with India also does not as China would not wish to divert forces and risk any multifront war. It was India with everything to gain by making increased patrols and moves on that slither of remaining disputed land in Ladakh (not incl Aksai Chin since that's been firmly controlled by China since the border war).

India considered its chances for salami slicing via patrolling and temporary structures within this stretch of land to be at worst responded to by China with diplomatic complaints and nothing more as China was distracted with covid outbreak in early 2020. It also considered that China would not escalate the conflict because salami slicing has been practiced by both with pretty good mutual understanding of how it works. India was half right on the latter. It simply did not expect a fairly strong reaction from China. Anyway the rest is history now.

Would both move forwards in good faith depends on how we finish this resolution. How is the buffer deal going to go for the rest of the area under standoff. How will demarcation attempts go. How will India and China play the extended geopolitical game now with the rest of the region etc. I do not have hopes that the two can form a better understanding and de-escalate the bigger underlying tensions that have come around since Doklam crisis and peaked with this one. Especially IF India and Pakistan tensions increase, China will almost certainly be backing Pakistan which would contribute to further unease between India and China.
With regards to demarcation, it is not just India that has certain conditions. Chona has also refused to sign any demarcation deal without India ceding Tawang. This is because due to Tawang's cultural significance to Tibetans, China feels Tibet is incomplete without it. Some small slivers of land in ladakh are inconsequential in comparison, as you ppinted out.

China itself has said it doesn't consider the Arunachal-Tibet border as part of the LAC. it only recognizes an IB with Assam and other states.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Reference 370 we can agree to disagree. It is a provision in the Indian constitution and has no international agreements. Both LOC/LAC were also not impacted by it. However, China may have felt a need to react given its friendship with Pakistan.

That's ridiculous. You're implying that China was forced to pick this fight because of its friendship with Pakistan. As if India and China would've been best friends if it weren't for Pakistan? lolz

A few posts ago you said that the Chinese are 'very strategic.' Well, good strategists don't "react" into major maneuvers without an actual long-term plan, and China did not react randomly. 370 was the trigger, but the planning for this maneuver started well before 370. China has committed to opening up a whole new theater here because of its own strategic calculus. All the airbases, infantry, armored divisions, and all the infrastructure to support these forces, this is a major strategic investment. You actually think this was all done for Pakistan's sake? Why? Did we save China's life or something? All of this was done because it aligns with China's own sovereign long-term interests, and the alignment of those interests with Pakistan is merely incidental, which is great for Pakistan, but we are not forcing China's hands.

You were right when you said the Chinese leadership isn't stupid, and they are indeed "very strategic." You just fail to understand what the word "strategic" means apparently. I've been citing Sawhney since this whole thing began, because he's been most on-point with his analysis, pre and post-Ladakh. He has published many pieces on the roots of this conflict, and why China is doing what it's doing. He also believes that this whole thing actually began a decade ago, and will only continue to ramp up from here. China/Pak are still in the positioning stage and the board is just being set up.
 
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