Ladakh Flash Point

[N00B]

There isn't a single Indian analyst who has the slightest clue about China, the World, and how and where India fits in between. I know this is a bold claim but after decades of reading the absolute pablum that is churned out by the Indian 'strategic community', I had to reach this conclusion.

It is entirely focused on geopolitics, that too hilariously wrong. And only the last paragraph will be left for economy. When it should be the opposite.

Their economic theories are equally moronic. Anything goes wrong, privatize. Law and order? What? Contract enforcement? Huh? Baseline infra? Labor and land? Well.... Education? Privatize!

Americans will talk about trade and sanctions. But no American will claim that Dalai Lama can be used as a leverage against China in 2020. Yet this is practically a staple theme in Indian writings. Now if they said that India can fund a Tibetan militia to physically attack China, that would be one thing (results notwithstanding). But they don't even say that! You ask them - "No no no! We are talking diplomatic pressure on China, internationally . That's all." Ya that will sure work.

In the similar vein, you have Quad, or Pentad, or whatever. Indians will fight China to the last American. America will fight China to the last Viet. Vietnam will fight China to the last Indian. It's the perfect alliance.

Using Modi's Shudra status to claim that India is not Brahmin-dominated is like using Barack Obama to claim that the United States isn't dominated by people of European descent or the various Hui / Mongol functionaries in the mid-upper CPC to claim that China isn't dominated by people of the Han ethnicity.

Nowhere in this thread I claimed Brahmins aren't powerful in India. I said they are not dominant alone. Circlejerking about 'Brahmins' alone will get you in a dead end. Even Dalits and Muslims understand this.

Secondly profession is no longer a marker of caste in India. This isn't 500 AD. Brahmins' job profiles span from security guard, to cowbelt mafia to ISRO chairman. Same for other castes. Caste in present times is entirely hereditary.

And therein lies the irony. You are constantly harping about Kshatriyas as if they are this meritocratic group of people with special professional skills, when in reality they too are another entirely hereditary caste. And therefore, while talking anti-caste ideology, you are actually legitimizing pro-caste ideology.

Also, I'll point out the difference between your deceased Brahmin doctor relative and the Chinese volunteers who kept order during COVID-19 and handled logistics. Your doctor relative's job, his Dharma, as a doctor was to put himself in the line of harm. The Chinese volunteers, well, some of them were doctors but many of them were not.

Do you seriously think that Brahmins who aren't doctors, are all sitting inside their homes, doors locked, for last 8 months? And other castes running the show?

And there were also many Indian volunteers who helped out without medical duty concerning COVID-19, but how many of them were Brahmins? How many of them, in contrast, were people from other castes?

You will have to start your research here -

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[caudaceus]

Maybe they did. As the Chinese FM is giving them a polite 'warning':

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For me, India playing the Tibet card should have been the red line. Indian meddling into Taiwan is stepping over that red line and then walking deep into China's no-go zone. I would actually like to see the Indian govt try and play this Taiwan game. China still hasn't officially punished India over its Tibet game. So India playing Taiwan should be able to spring China into action.

Don't think so. Even Taiwan has an FTA with Singapore since 2013, no problem. I think earlier India's Taiwan FTA intention was just grandstanding. They know the impact wouldn't be much. Remember that India is very protectionist as shown for their willingness abandoning RCEP.

 

[Bright Sword]

India's current ruling party is quite justifiably steering the nation...Ultimately, I think India got its method right, but the timing and luck is against it - it's too late and too unfortunate. India has failed to prepare itself to be a good place for new Factories and industry.

Agree. India has an internal challenge that it must address.
The ruling party in India has problems with 15% of its population.
1. This population segment is an impediment to the reshaping of India's cultural identity.
2. Unlike the majority population the base of the cultural and religious identity of this population segment lies outside the boundaries of India.
3. Historically this population segment are foreign invaders who entered India from elsewhere and have been the cause for much cultural damage and humiliation to India.,
4. This population segment is responsible for the vivisection of India and the secession of two large portions of territory that are hostile to India.
5. The population is a "fifth column" for India's prime enemy nation.
6. Before India can fight its external adversaries this population segment must be eliminated or removed.
7. New laws have therefore been made to declare 15% of the population as non-citizens.
8.The goal towards removal of this population segment is in the following phases:
8.1 Removal of this population segment from the citizen's registers.
8.2 Disenfranchisement from the political process.
8.3. Complete withdrawal of the rights to judicial appeal, food rations and termination of jobs, confiscation of property, businesses and all movable assets.
8.4. Incarceration of the population with efforts to expel it to neighboring nations.
8.5. Implementation of a back up plan in case of a refusal by neighboring territories to accept the expulsion of the population. The back up plan is elimination of the population.

 

[Nobonita Barua]

this forum is epicenter of hypocrisy. Coming from mouths of wannabe revolutionary Han and paki's Muslim chauvinist sitting in capitalist US , it's funny to hear the BS.

Lol. That's funny coming from a wannabe white aryan worshiper visa loving hindu trying to incorporate western "bikini" lifestyle into "thousand years of old" tradition cocktail.
Truly, every hindu is literally an epicenter of entertainment.Feeling proud of thousand of years old tradition while first in plane to leave it asap.
You couldn't stay away from here, could you?

 

[asdf1234]

Lol. That's funny coming from a wannabe white aryan worshiper visa loving hindu trying to incorporate western "bikini" lifestyle into "thousand years of old" tradition cocktail.
Truly, every hindu is literally an epicenter of entertainment.Feeling proud of thousand of years old tradition while first in plane to leave it asap.
You couldn't stay away from here, could you?

People over at the ZTZ-99 & ZTQ-15 threads are ignoring his toxic posts so now he‘s trying it over here haha, what a loser

EDIT: Must of wasted so much time on that page long post with pictures of T-72/T-90 and in the end not a single reaction to show for haha

 

[Sardaukar20]

Don't think so. Even Taiwan has an FTA with Singapore since 2013, no problem. I think earlier India's Taiwan FTA intention was just grandstanding. They know the impact wouldn't be much. Remember that India is very protectionist as shown for their willingness abandoning RCEP.

Taiwan have signed FTA with many countries for decades. I don't know exactly why China is so worked up on this India - Taiwan trade deal thing. My guess, it could be the statement. If a country signs a trade deal with the ROC, Taiwan's official name. Then no problem. But if they sign a trade deal with 'Taiwan', then it starts to get sensitive.

I think this Indian plan for a new trade deal with Taiwan is more than just a trade deal. Its actually a mischievous dig to begin recognising Taiwanese independence. Some Indians think this is a smart move to slap China in the face.

Unsurprisingly, there is a popular opinion among Indian nationalists to recognize Taiwan's independence from China.That toilet paper Bloomberg-sourced report in Al-Jazeera points this out:

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Sana Hashmi, a fellow at Taipei-based National Chengchi University and author of “China’s Approach Towards Territorial Disputes: Lessons and Prospects,” said it makes sense for India to align with Taiwan economically.

“Increasingly there seems to be an awareness not just among Indians but even in other nations about how China has dictated relationships in the region,” said Hashmi, who has penned op-eds in Taiwanese and Indian media encouraging closer ties between the two democracies. “And it’s not like China is going to give any concessions to India or Taiwan for toeing its line.”

What an article to make the CCP's blood boil. But it looks like the Indian leadership is chickening out on this Taiwan game. Still, we never know if they could actually change their minds in the future.

 

[Bright Sword]

Returning to the topic:
China's 1959 Claim Line:

Some Indian military analysts are saying that the 5 point agreement between the Indian and PRC foreign ministers is basically an acceptance of China's 1959 Claim Line as a border and no mention has been made of the demarcation as the Line of Actual Control.
Questions:
1. Theoretically if India were to accept the 1959 Claim Line ( which actually would result in the PLA withdrawing east of most positions held on the LAC ) then would this end the territorial dispute?
2. Is the dispute between India and China only confined to a boundary dispute?
3. Factors, such as the SCS ( and India's involvement with the Quad), CPEC were not present in the original 1962 conflict. How would India's involvement in these factors be resolved once a boundary dispute is settled?
4.Future? Will India and China isolate their relationship from getting linked to further tensions with third parties.
Example :
India's tensions with Pakistan
or China's tensions with Taiwan.

 

[plawolf]

Returning to the topic:
China's 1959 Claim Line:

Some Indian military analysts are saying that the 5 point agreement between the Indian and PRC foreign ministers is basically an acceptance of China's 1959 Claim Line as a border and no mention has been made of the demarcation as the Line of Actual Control.
Questions:
1. Theoretically if India were to accept the 1959 Claim Line ( which actually would result in the PLA withdrawing east of most positions held on the LAC ) then would this end the territorial dispute?
2. Is the dispute between India and China only confined to a boundary dispute?
3. Factors, such as the SCS ( and India's involvement with the Quad), CPEC were not present in the original 1962 conflict. How would India's involvement in these factors be resolved once a boundary dispute is settled?
4.Future? Will India and China isolate their relationship from getting linked to further tensions with third parties.
Example :
India's tensions with Pakistan
or China's tensions with Taiwan.

Relentless Indian hostility has changed Chinese strategic considerations towards it unfortunately.

In the past, there was a genuine desire on the part of China to resolve the boarder dispute, as China did not want that to poison its relations with India.

Those hopes were dashed by the arrogance of Indian leader at the time, and the 62 war pretty much determined the course of China-India relations.

However, until Indian provocations in the last few years, the boarder dispute was pretty much a non-issue in terms of bilateral relations and did not really cause too much problems for either side.

What Chinese leaders and strategists did take note of was India’s relentless and increasing bitterness and hostility towards China for the mere fact that India just couldn’t hold a candle to China’s success.

There is not much China can do if India wants to resent and hate China just because China is being successful.

India’s hostility and desperation to do China harm has been noted, and it is only unrivalled Indian incompetence that has saved them from becoming a priority concern for Chinese leaders.

Basically I think the conclusion that China has reached is that India has a fundamental and intractable problem with China that goes way beyond the boarder dispute. Even if China fully accepted India’s claim and gave them all the land they claimed, they will still have the same fundamental and intractable hostility towards China because the core reason for Indian hostility towards China isn’t the boarder dispute, but because they nonsensically feel China has somehow ‘stolen’ their rightful place in the world, and stupidly think that all of China’s success and wealth could be theirs if China collapsed and ceased to be.

As such, there is no point in making any compromise with India on the boarder dispute, because nothing China can offer India will ever be good enough. China can give Indian Tibet and they will just come and demand Xinjiang next.

As such, Chinese strategy seems to be to pursue a hard nosed facts on the ground approach to consolidate and solidity their claims while at the same time denying India the ability to continue patrolling to their claims.

This is only the small, tactical level objective of reinforcing Chinese territorial claims. The broader strategic objective is to keep the boarder conflict open indefinitely, to provide the pretext for military action against India should Chinese leaders determine that is necessary.

 

[AndrewS]

The problem with the caste system is that 'smart genes' have not been widely distributed within the Indian population. Unlike China, where the examination system produced talent that rose to positions of power, privilege, and polygamy.

I remember Lee Kuan Yew made the same remark

 

[eprash]

Relentless Indian hostility has changed Chinese strategic considerations towards it unfortunately.

In the past, there was a genuine desire on the part of China to resolve the boarder dispute, as China did not want that to poison its relations with India.

Those hopes were dashed by the arrogance of Indian leader at the time, and the 62 war pretty much determined the course of China-India relations.

However, until Indian provocations in the last few years, the boarder dispute was pretty much a non-issue in terms of bilateral relations and did not really cause too much problems for either side.

What Chinese leaders and strategists did take note of was India’s relentless and increasing bitterness and hostility towards China for the mere fact that India just couldn’t hold a candle to China’s success.

There is not much China can do if India wants to resent and hate China just because China is being successful.

India’s hostility and desperation to do China harm has been noted, and it is only unrivalled Indian incompetence that has saved them from becoming a priority concern for Chinese leaders.

Basically I think the conclusion that China has reached is that India has a fundamental and intractable problem with China that goes way beyond the boarder dispute. Even if China fully accepted India’s claim and gave them all the land they claimed, they will still have the same fundamental and intractable hostility towards China because the core reason for Indian hostility towards China isn’t the boarder dispute, but because they nonsensically feel China has somehow ‘stolen’ their rightful place in the world, and stupidly think that all of China’s success and wealth could be theirs if China collapsed and ceased to be.

As such, there is no point in making any compromise with India on the boarder dispute, because nothing China can offer India will ever be good enough. China can give Indian Tibet and they will just come and demand Xinjiang next.

As such, Chinese strategy seems to be to pursue a hard nosed facts on the ground approach to consolidate and solidity their claims while at the same time denying India the ability to continue patrolling to their claims.

This is only the small, tactical level objective of reinforcing Chinese territorial claims. The broader strategic objective is to keep the boarder conflict open indefinitely, to provide the pretext for military action against India should Chinese leaders determine that is necessary.

Very good analysis, as an Indian let me bring another crucial factor that's not mentioned by you, pure racism towards people of mongoloid features, I noticed this first when i went for a movie with two of my northeastern friends it was embarrassing and frustrating to say the least and I bet dollars to donughts if they had Caucasian features the experience would have been the polar opposite, so yes the illusion of superiority should be crushed just like Europeans did in the past only then sensibility will come to the table