Ladakh Flash Point

[FishWings]

I think the PLAAF pilots and doctrine are much more realistic. They have trained with the Thai, Russians, and Pakistanis and should know the difference between stunts and what real WVR demands. I don't think it would have been so easy otherwise for the antiquated J-11A to beat the Gripen C in WVR so convincingly. BVR of course went to the Gripen without saying. It has much smaller RCS and more modern missiles and radar. Indians love to claim the J-11As lost BVR but always forget to mention they won WVR. It was also early 1990s Su-27SK (J-11A) vs late 90s early 2000s Gripen C.

I remember PLAAF sending some Flankers to train with PAF as a simulation for Su-30MKI, but forgot the type. Was it the J-16?

 

[FishWings]

The training with the Thais as you have mentioned was Falcon Strike 2015. An experienced PLAAF Flanker pilot described the J-11As capabilities at BVR as essentially an embarrassment vs the Gripens. It should have been a wake-up call for the PLAAF that the backbone of its Flanker fleet, the J-11s is poor at BVR combat. But he also went on to mention that the J-10s fared much better against the Gripens. So in a hypothetical air war with India, the J-10s, not the Chinese Flankers would be the key player. But Chinese Flankers are still important for long range CAP. So, I just wonder how many of the more up-to-date J-11B/ J-11D with AESA radars, and reduced RCS have been produced? It seems like an urgent thing to fix, considering all the hostilities that are going on right now.

On the topic of joint training with foreign air forces. I would like to see the PLAAF train with the Singaporean Air Force. These guys are considered the best in SEA, and they have the F-15s. The PLAAF needs to train against the F-15s, considering that these are among its greatest threats.

I wouldn't say PLAAF Flankers are bad at BVR. The J-11As sent to face Gripens weren't capable of carrying R-77 nor PL-12s I believe, which would of course lead to them losing BVR.

J-11Bs, on the other hand, should be comparable to F-15C and are easily an order of magnitude more capable in BVR than the J-11A/Su-27S, simply owing to its ability to fire Fox Threes alone, on top of other improvements in avionics, countermeasures, etc.

The J-16 would be another order of magnitude more capable than the J-11B due to even better countermeasures, reduced RCS, AESA radar + PL-15 combination, etc. The J-16s are at least as good, if not better, than J-10Cs and especially J-10Bs in any air war with India.

To answer your question about upgraded J-11s, I think the J-11A/Su-27S is now only serving in relatively limited numbers in the PLAAF compared to the J-11B, which in fact is comprises the majority of the total Flanker fleet. I don't think there have been any recent developments on the J-11D. Some J-11Bs are receiving AESA radars (unofficially called J-11BG), which is probably just one upgrade among a set of improvements. If this upgrade turns out to be implemented on all or even just most of the J-11Bs, it can be assumed that the J-11D development is effectively halted since its best selling points already exist in the form of the J-16 and J-11BG

 

[localizer]

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Haha “nightmares of the indian army”

 

[siegecrossbow]

By virtue of superior weapons load and radar, J-11B usually triumphs against J-10s (including the same ones that won against the Gripens) during Golden Helmet and Sky Eagle exercises. Had China sent J-11B to Eagle Strike in Thailand instead of the J-10s I think there would've been an even more lopsided victory in favor of China.

 

[ougoah]

I wouldn't say PLAAF Flankers are bad at BVR. The J-11As sent to face Gripens weren't capable of carrying R-77 nor PL-12s I believe, which would of course lead to them losing BVR.

J-11Bs, on the other hand, should be comparable to F-15C and are easily an order of magnitude more capable in BVR than the J-11A/Su-27S, simply owing to its ability to fire Fox Threes alone, on top of other improvements in avionics, countermeasures, etc.

The J-16 would be another order of magnitude more capable than the J-11B due to even better countermeasures, reduced RCS, AESA radar + PL-15 combination, etc. The J-16s are at least as good, if not better, than J-10Cs and especially J-10Bs in any air war with India.

To answer your question about upgraded J-11s, I think the J-11A/Su-27S is now only serving in relatively limited numbers in the PLAAF compared to the J-11B, which in fact is comprises the majority of the total Flanker fleet. I don't think there have been any recent developments on the J-11D. Some J-11Bs are receiving AESA radars (unofficially called J-11BG), which is probably just one upgrade among a set of improvements. If this upgrade turns out to be implemented on all or even just most of the J-11Bs, it can be assumed that the J-11D development is effectively halted since its best selling points already exist in the form of the J-16 and J-11BG

Yep. The J-11A/Su-27SK was barely more BVR capable than the very first F-16s which weren't BVR capable. The Gripen C is actually older than I thought it was but still has more than half a decade on the old flanker.

 

[ougoah]

I remember PLAAF sending some Flankers to train with PAF as a simulation for Su-30MKI, but forgot the type. Was it the J-16?

I recall one year they sent J-11B and a few years after that they sent the J-16. Could be misremembering and someone may correct me but I do recall J-16 being sent for exercises with PAF in recent year/s.

 

[ougoah]

By virtue of superior weapons load and radar, J-11B usually triumphs against J-10s (including the same ones that won against the Gripens) during Golden Helmet and Sky Eagle exercises. Had China sent J-11B to Eagle Strike in Thailand instead of the J-10s I think there would've been an even more lopsided victory in favor of China.

It's curious that there was no mention about the Gripen's vaunted "digital stealth" capabilities shown at some Red Flag exercises that internet rumours have been garnishing for years. The whole Gripens appearing next to Typhoons and penetrating layers of defenses. I don't doubt the Swedes have some very fancy electronic gizmos and jammers etc. Maybe the Thai were not given those toys ... US engines, BAe involvement etc on the Gripen = NATO dictating what can be sold and what can be used, who knows.

I would be really surprised if a J-11B (without the new AESA upgrades) can win BVR against J-10C. It's a much larger RCS target and the J-10C's AESA would also be miles better than its counterpart. Even PL-12s only, the only advantage with the J-11B would be fuel reserves. Adding AWACS cuing would change all that though.

 

[reservior dogs]

I remember PLAAF sending some Flankers to train with PAF as a simulation for Su-30MKI, but forgot the type. Was it the J-16?

Yes, war is the extension of politics by another means. You have to see the objective of the PLA when they invaded Vietnam. The objective was to stop Vietnam from creating its own sphere of influence with Indo-China, namely Cambodia and Laos. While the initial casualties were high for the Chinese side, and also it took them many years of fighting after the initial invasion, the Vietnamese gave up that ambition eventually. So I would say that they achieve their objective, even though it was messy in the beginning.

 

[Phead128]

It's actually mindblowing how vast China's territory is... the fact that they have a border with Afghanistan and Pakistan and the -Stans is just mindblowing.

 

[FishWings]

I recall one year they sent J-11B and a few years after that they sent the J-16. Could be misremembering and someone may correct me but I do recall J-16 being sent for exercises with PAF in recent year/s.

I searched it up. J-11Bs were sent in 2017. In 2019, PLAAF sent J-11Bs, Su-30s, and J-16s to participate