J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
According to Henri K, the PLAAF already decided in favor of the 3D design.
View attachment 61738

Firstly, what is the source of this that Henri K learnt from?

Secondly, putting something in the technology reserve box just means it’s not viable right now, and it is to be expected that the thrust loss from a 2D full stealth nozzle is just too much for a WS10 to still provide the J20 with enough thrust to be viable, but that does not mean it’s not something they would not explore again once the WS15 is available.
 

Inst

Captain
Firstly, what is the source of this that Henri K learnt from?

Secondly, putting something in the technology reserve box just means it’s not viable right now, and it is to be expected that the thrust loss from a 2D full stealth nozzle is just too much for a WS10 to still provide the J20 with enough thrust to be viable, but that does not mean it’s not something they would not explore again once the WS15 is available.


The design of the J-20's rear part strongly suggest that they'd like do to 2D TVC; the current rear section is such that you'd need substantial modification to support 3D TVC because the engine nozzles are recessed into the body.

However, the big advantage of 3D TVC over 2D TVC is that you can do complete control surface lock. Not even the F-22 can do that; only the Su-57 can potentially lock everything but its 3D TVC nozzles, and with the stealth-optimized 3D TVC nozzles the Chinese are using, they'd gain a major advantage in stealth as the nozzles wouldn't extend out of the main bay shapes.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I don’t think the J10B TWC testbed can give us any solid indications in terms of Chinese TVC plans for the J20.

If they go for a F35 style somewhat-stealth round nozzle design, it might allow for 3D TVC, but if they opt to go for F22 style full stealth (including IR suppression, which might be a key priority for the J20 when supercruising), 2D is more likely.

I think it is premature for us to make any conclusions because I think the PLAAF itself would probably need to see test results of the two types to make a final decision itself. In that respect, I fully expect to see both F22 and F35 nozzle versions of WS15s appearing on J20s in the future, perhaps even have a fly-off to determine the final winner, but I don’t think we will know for sure which way the PLAAF have gone until we see production versions.
I don’t think that will be necessary. How each nozzle performs in thrust and IR suppression will be pretty evident from the engine tests alone. What will determine the TVC type, if it hasn’t already been decided, will be based on what requirements the PLAAF defines. The FCS integration for a 2D and 3D system will be very different. Trying to do a fly off of the two is a lot of unnecessary work to observe performance that can already be determined from static test beds.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I don’t think that will be necessary. How each nozzle performs in thrust and IR suppression will be pretty evident from the engine tests alone. What will determine the TVC type, if it hasn’t already been decided, will be based on what requirements the PLAAF defines. The FCS integration for a 2D and 3D system will be very different. Trying to do a fly off of the two is a lot of unnecessary work to observe performance that can already be determined from static test beds.

Furthermore, if they have a full 3D TVC engine installed, they could always software limit the FCS to simulate 2D TVC and potentially do the full flight test of how the J20 might perform with 2D WS15s.

The only thing they may want/need full sized live testing might be RCS testing, but that could easily be done on the ground with a repurposed prototype.

A fly off probably isn’t strictly necessary, but it would be cool to have, so forgive my wishful thinking here. ;)
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Furthermore, if they have a full 3D TVC engine installed, they could always software limit the FCS to simulate 2D TVC and potentially do the full flight test of how the J20 might perform with 2D WS15s.

The only thing they may want/need full sized live testing might be RCS testing, but that could easily be done on the ground with a repurposed prototype.

A fly off probably isn’t strictly necessary, but it would be cool to have, so forgive my wishful thinking here. ;)
You could simulate 2D TVC by locking in only single axis vectoring, but the control laws would still have to be very different. TVC FCS integration won’t just involve laws for when to deflect the nozzles, but also modified laws for the deflection of the control surfaces when nozzles are deflected as well.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
You could simulate 2D TVC by locking in only single axis vectoring, but the control laws would still have to be very different. TVC FCS integration won’t just involve laws for when to deflect the nozzles, but also modified laws for the deflection of the control surfaces when nozzles are deflected as well.

I thought that would be a given? And the testing won’t just be to see how well the plane flies, but also to explore how TVC might allow it to better manage its RCS through reduced or even non-traditional control surface movements.

For example, with the additional control authority granted by TVC, the canards (and other control surfaces) could potentially be set to be slaves to the RWR to present the best aspect stealth against incoming emission source(s) to minimise RCS while the FCS and TVC compensated for the aerodynamics.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I thought that would be a given? And the testing won’t just be to see how well the plane flies, but also to explore how TVC might allow it to better manage its RCS through reduced or even non-traditional control surface movements.

For example, with the additional control authority granted by TVC, the canards (and other control surfaces) could potentially be set to be slaves to the RWR to present the best aspect stealth against incoming emission source(s) to minimise RCS while the FCS and TVC compensated for the aerodynamics.
Just wanted to be very clear about just how much work it would be to develop both a 2D TVC FCS and a 3D TVC FCS for a fly off. My main point is just that it makes a lot more sense to figure out acceptable thrust loss and IR suppression requirements, pick one, and do the whole development that way rather than try to do both and see how they perform IRL. My thinking is that 3D TVC has already been chosen because of minimal thrust loss (based on the paper about the TVC used in the J-10 thrust lost might be as low as 3-5%?) and because there are probably other ways of getting comparable IR suppression without a deeply nested 2D design based on ambient air mixing methods.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Ah, great, here we go. We're going to spend the next 10 pages discussing Minnie Chan trash.

Eerie prescience...

Here are some micro-photos of J-20 taken by an enthusiast from Wuhu.

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zgfapzy.jpg


ScwUo1g.jpg
 
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