Chinese Economics Thread

[j17wang]

This is indeed a rare, possibly none-existent attitude (being practiced) in China. Out of the Chinese people I know with the means to, they are on their 10th Rolex and CRAVE the new $20,000 "Hulk" or because one of their friends has a BMW X5 they MUST exceed them with a BMW X6. It's this attitude that separates wealthy Chinese from South Koreans and Japanese and partly why China, at least in the short to medium future, will not develop its own luxury consumer products outside of electronics, telecomm, and computing. Few if any significant number of Chinese people will support such businesses and even fewer foreigners will. Where Chinese maufacturing does win favour world-wide (despite name calling and soundbites) is in mass produced inexpensive stuff. I suppose money talks and as long as this money is made and properly invested, I couldn't care less that no Chinese luxury consumer brands exist. TaTa group owns Jaguar... money and military are the only tangible things of real worth to a country. Learned from the old colonial masters. Private property, laws that govern this, and the violent forces that enforce them.

Chinese people have been in poverty for so long I suppose and this whole spending should be a form of catharsis where hopefully the materialists eventually realise there is no pot of gold at the end of this shopping spree rainbow but a pot of shit. Material wealth beyond a certain point of diminishing returns does not bring satisfaction, if anything it robs people of it like so many cults/religions/movements have spouted along history. Of course you're right too and I agreed in my post that there is still some point to all the spending. It's just being directed in less than ideal places. No one's got this right though and each society deals with their own demon in this respect. Soon enough we'll have consumed our way into the abyss, surrounded by discarded plastic while fighting over the last shred of breathable air, drinkable water, and burnable fossil. Now if the STEM people around the world could lead it, there may be a hope for all of us. Unfortunately rather than actual progress and cooperation, we've got this whole thing and finger pointing. Evil doesn't recognise its own reflection in the West and through their arrogance and inability to think as a group, we're all being steered towards serious confrontations. When I was younger, I actually believed the drivel about China being some antagonist in all this, somehow... because the narrative isn't questioned and devilishly manipulative, until I noticed and realised the truths. I guess it was easier to blame China for every associated ill. Different race, nationality, political structure, and China itself is far from perfect like every other society and people. It's all so easy and comfortable to have a "satan" figure conveniently placed to explain everything away.

Both you and manqiangrexue have hit the nail on the head. Considering that there are over 50 million members of the Chinese diaspora, and the fact a good proportion of members in SDF are likely to be overseas Chinese, we should also consider our own massive purchasing power to help change economic attitudes/perspective both outside of china and even within china.

Many of us are now in highly successful careers in the west, and to be honest, I'm not going to stop consuming just because of COVID/trade war. But I've shifted my spending so this year, I purchased a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 to replace my old Dell, I've ordered a One-plus to replace my iphone, and I am seriously considering the Polestar 2 once its available in Canada, even though my current Acura is only 4 years old. Ideally I would like to buy electronics from Huawei and an EV from xpeng (china's Tesla), but they are not widely available in North America. If you also consider the impression Huawei and xpeng currently conveys in the west, there is much more blowback than if you try to buy goods from "safer china" brands like Lenovo, One-Plus, Polestar/Volvo. Its easier to change westerner's narratives/stereotypes if you sport these brands, since they aren't clouded by as large negative perceptions.

Totally agree on the thousand dollar bags being worthless blood-suckers of the economy. Side-rant: as one of the "positives" of COVID-19, I convinced my girlfriend to sell one of her LV bags. I committed to buy her a T97 rifle with tricked-out holosun accessories for her birthday this August, since we both got our PALs back in Feb and this would make a nice get-out-of-COVID present. To be honest... I just wanted to spend at least ~$2,000 on a firearm so that I didn't look cheap, but its hard to do that with chinese firearms, and Trudeau did forget this gun in his firearm ban. Its nice "reparations" for convincing her to give up the LV.

Many times we talk about a need for people in china to change their mentality to stop blindly pursuing western luxury goods. Considering these people have more familial/business/civic ties to overseas diasporas than the average person in China, overseas chinese have an excellent opportunity to "virtue signal". Imagine a meeting of a middle-management executive in Beijing with a chinese-canadian business owner in Toronto, and the first thing he sees is the canadian picking him up at the airport in a Polestar 2. The executive knows damn well a person driving a Polestar 2 could have just as easily bought a Benz/BMW/Audi. Sitting in that Polestar 2 halfway around the world for 30 minutes probably convinces this businessman more than any online forum or Xinhua news-piece that chinese products are as good as any and that "china has arrived". Those are the types of occurrences/instances that tank sales of foreign luxury cars in china the moment the executive landed back in Beijing...

 

[PiSigma]

You may want to reread what I said. It appears you're only comprehending posts in absolutes. I'm saying whatever China does economically, it WON'T be too painful. BUT it is due because as things stand China is busily enriching Australia, who will NEVER be friendly to China. I suspect it's the CCP's way to "buying" political influence and favours. So the CCP has so far until last year been pretty much pouring the RMB into Australia, all for naught. And I don't feel bad for them because whoever thought they could buy influence is very, very wrong indeed. Same with students who contribute and spend about half a million Australian dollars each. If they truly bought a worthwhile education then perhaps that is all worth it, but I very much doubt this with all the partying and cheating going on with many of these youngsters. Their parents are basically donating money in exchange for a piece of worthless paper. The vast majority of these kids are wasting their time in these universities unless they're involved in some elite post graduate programs in STEM. I recall most being accounting kids buying their assignments off wechat.

China can just say all Australian university degrees are no longer accredited in China, as in they won't recognize it. Good luck finding a job then with a worthless piece of paper.

About a decade ago, university of Calgary hosted the dalai lama even after student complains and warnings from china. So China threatened to unrecognized them.. Chinese students to uofc dropped of a cliff for a few years until uofc quietly apologized and said no more dalai hosting.

 

[localizer]

China can just say all Australian university degrees are no longer accredited in China, as in they won't recognize it. Good luck finding a job then with a worthless piece of paper.

About a decade ago, university of Calgary hosted the dalai lama even after student complains and warnings from china. So China threatened to unrecognized them.. Chinese students to uofc dropped of a cliff for a few years until uofc quietly apologized and said no more dalai hosting.

Yeh this is the kind things that can be done.

Don't do anything that hurts Chinese productivity.

Western luxury goods and (undergraduate) western education provides no measurable increase in productivity.


In this respect, I am absolutely fine with google/youtube in China that blocks the trash. Western social media platforms should also be allowed in China provided they use real ID verification. People should be allowed to say whatever provided they reveal who pays them to say those things.


Youtube likes to label Chinese channels as funded by Chinese gov. They should be consistent and label Epoch times with CIA funding

 

[Mcsweeney]

Both you and manqiangrexue have hit the nail on the head. Considering that there are over 50 million members of the Chinese diaspora, and the fact a good proportion of members in SDF are likely to be overseas Chinese, we should also consider our own massive purchasing power to help change economic attitudes/perspective both outside of china and even within china.

Many of us are now in highly successful careers in the west, and to be honest, I'm not going to stop consuming just because of COVID/trade war. But I've shifted my spending so this year, I purchased a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 to replace my old Dell, I've ordered a One-plus to replace my iphone, and I am seriously considering the Polestar 2 once its available in Canada, even though my current Acura is only 4 years old. Ideally I would like to buy electronics from Huawei and an EV from xpeng (china's Tesla), but they are not widely available in North America. If you also consider the impression Huawei and xpeng currently conveys in the west, there is much more blowback than if you try to buy goods from "safer china" brands like Lenovo, One-Plus, Polestar/Volvo. Its easier to change westerner's narratives/stereotypes if you sport these brands, since they aren't clouded by as large negative perceptions.

Totally agree on the thousand dollar bags being worthless blood-suckers of the economy. Side-rant: as one of the "positives" of COVID-19, I convinced my girlfriend to sell one of her LV bags. I committed to buy her a T97 rifle with tricked-out holosun accessories for her birthday this August, since we both got our PALs back in Feb and this would make a nice get-out-of-COVID present. To be honest... I just wanted to spend at least ~$2,000 on a firearm so that I didn't look cheap, but its hard to do that with chinese firearms, and Trudeau did forget this gun in his firearm ban. Its nice "reparations" for convincing her to give up the LV.

Many times we talk about a need for people in china to change their mentality to stop blindly pursuing western luxury goods. Considering these people have more familial/business/civic ties to overseas diasporas than the average person in China, overseas chinese have an excellent opportunity to "virtue signal". Imagine a meeting of a middle-management executive in Beijing with a chinese-canadian business owner in Toronto, and the first thing he sees is the canadian picking him up at the airport in a Polestar 2. The executive knows damn well a person driving a Polestar 2 could have just as easily bought a Benz/BMW/Audi. Sitting in that Polestar 2 halfway around the world for 30 minutes probably convinces this businessman more than any online forum or Xinhua news-piece that chinese products are as good as any and that "china has arrived". Those are the types of occurrences/instances that tank sales of foreign luxury cars in china the moment the executive landed back in Beijing...

I buy Chinese products as well any chance I get, and by that I mean ACTUAL Chinese products, not something from an American company that just happens to have "Made in China" stamped on it. It seems that in the past 5 years there's been a revolution of Chinese consumer products in several areas that are now at or near the top of not just bang for your buck, but overall performance and reliability. I just moved into a new place this month and the floor is getting a bit dirty because I have no vacuum cleaner. The reason is I'm waiting for the new Roborock H6 cordless vacuum to come out in a few days. Early reviewers say it's the most advanced cordless vacuum that's ever been made -- better than the most expensive Dyson equivalent -- and will cost a few hundred dollars less. Also in the market for a new TV once I can afford one, and I'll probably be looking at a TCL 4K TV.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

@ougoah @Dolcevita

A survey was conducted a few years ago asking the question, "Is money is the most important indicator of success?" Among citizens of Japan, the rate of "yes" was only 10%. In South Korea, it was 30%. In China, that rate was ~75%. That survey made me jealous of Japan for a rare time and recall why some people say that on average, Japanese wives are the best in the world.

That is right I just can't understand the materialism of Nuovo rich in China they just worship the west and western people on the altar
And yeah nowadays both Japanese and Overseas Chinese found that they have much to offer each other The Japanese young people are scared to marry because of high divorce rate in Japan 1 of every 3 marriage end up in divorce Plus the brutal working condition and male dominated society. Japan are so individualistic and alienated society this day . They are so cold never smile and everybody take care of their own sphere too much etiquette. Chinese are noisy but warm and most overseas Chinese are still follow confucian tradition. At least the food is good

On the other hand Chinese women these days are very materialistic and demanding. They demand 3 C, Condo, credit card, consumerism . It turn many people off
So And they show up their live together in youtube. Here are example
Kwok Yeow & Kaori

Wayne and Sasa

Ryu and Yumma

 

[localizer]

China would collapse without greed and ambition. I just want it to be used in the right places.

It's good to see young, smart, ambitious Chinese in a world of worries. It's good to see there are so many Chinese more capable than me.

 

[plawolf]

Thing is Chinese people pay a lot for food. Meat is expensive. Good quality meat hard to come by.

If it were up to me, I would unrestrict all food imports. Let the other countries subsidize Chinese diet. Money saved can be used for other things.

That’s precisely the kind of short sighted thinking that doomed American manufacturing.

With Australia, the US, American, Japan etc all massively subsidising their farmers either directly or indirectly, if China throws open the floodgates, those subsidised producers will quickly wipe out Chinese domestic farmers.

Aside from the hundreds of millions of unemployed farmers who now need the state to step in to feed them, you open yourself up to precisely the kind of starvation threat later on, when you are entirely reliant on imports to feed your population and the western nations you depend on for much of your food suddenly decide to gang up and stop supplying you.

US foreign policy is to sanction/"starve the children" countries that don't obey. Never mess with people's food supply.

That’s precisely why China needs to continue to support its farmers. If you are not self sufficient to basic sustenance levels, you present potential adversaries with a lethal weakness, and there is no way America would not seek to weaponise that to be used when it suits them.

 

[localizer]

That’s precisely the kind of short sighted thinking that doomed American manufacturing.

With Australia, the US, American, Japan etc all massively subsidising their farmers either directly or indirectly, if China throws open the floodgates, those subsidised producers will quickly wipe out Chinese domestic farmers.

Aside from the hundreds of millions of unemployed farmers who now need the state to step in to feed them, you open yourself up to precisely the kind of starvation threat later on, when you are entirely reliant on imports to feed your population and the western nations you depend on for much of your food suddenly decide to gang up and stop supplying you.



That’s precisely why China needs to continue to support its farmers. If you are not self sufficient to basic sustenance levels, you present potential adversaries with a lethal weakness, and there is no way America would not seek to weaponise that to be used when it suits them.

US manufacturing was doomed by regulations and wage controls.

There are always ways to get by whatever food shortages if you are open to trading with everyone. Agriculture sector should become more automated to gain competitive edge.


The reason why swine fever affected China so much is due to lack of high tech solutions in Chinese farms due to government subsidies disincentivizing tech.

 

[B.I.B.]

The reason why swine fever affected China so much is due to lack of high tech solutions in Chinese farms due to government subsidies disincentivizing tech.

NZ farming is not subsidized since the introduction of Rogernomics in 1984. Its been swim or sink for us farmers since then, however we have gone on to be amongst the best in the world.
Meanwhile the Australian apple growing industry is highly protected from imports from NZ As a consequence, Australians have a limited choice of apple varieties to choose from with many of their apples being the varieties grown many decades before.

 

[AssassinsMace]

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If signs are heading that direction my prediction Trump will be in a rush to cancel the deal first to make it look like he's the one in control.

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A sign of desperation because if the US carries out their threat to punish all countries that use its technology to make products they in turn sell to China, there will be a huge backlash against the US by the world. It's better if the world "voluntarily" does it. It shows how dependent not independent the US is to the world because they would end up isolating themselves.