SD Forum suggestions and questions

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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
@ Admins:

I apologize for my part in contributing to the heat on that thread, and I will keep my distance from it if it reopens.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why are we closing the thread when it’s just a few individuals who are causing the problems? As COVID19 continues to spread, more and more members are becoming directly affected and put at risk, as such I think it is wrong to keep locking the thread and potentially depriving members of up to date information and maybe even life saving advice. Would be much better to issue warnings and suspensions to individuals who seem determined to derail and close that threat because of political and nationalist ideology.

Couldn't describe the trollicitis disease better than this.
Ban the trolls, not the thread.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Why are we closing the thread when it’s just a few individuals who are causing the problems? As COVID19 continues to spread, more and more members are becoming directly affected and put at risk, as such I think it is wrong to keep locking the thread and potentially depriving members of up to date information and maybe even life saving advice. Would be much better to issue warnings and suspensions to individuals who seem determined to derail and close that threat because of political and nationalist ideology.

In principle I agree with you, but as it seems none of the current mods - esp. given the current situation in the job and at home - has neither the time to trace back, who started with a certain degree of provocation or political bias ... also if you need that thread so urgently that it "potentially depriv[es] members of up to date information and maybe even life sav[es] advice", then you might dramatically overrate this thred.

I stand to my decision ... at least until the situation becomes slightly better.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In principle I agree with you, but as it seems none of the current mods - esp. given the current situation in the job and at home - has neither the time to trace back, who started with a certain degree of provocation or political bias ... also if you need that thread so urgently that it "potentially depriv[es] members of up to date information and maybe even life sav[es] advice", then you might dramatically overrate this thred.

I stand to my decision ... at least until the situation becomes slightly better.

My counter argument is that this is SDF and the userbase of the forum is primarily that of Chinese individuals either Chinese nationals or more commonly Chinese individuals living overseas.

As I've mentioned in various moderator discussions, I think we need to start looking at what level of "normal bias" we are willing to tolerate here given the userbase that this forum relies on.
The current COVID pandemic is very much a unique event in history, and asking people here to not discuss it seems very counterintuitive to me. There are many other forums out there with much more lax and offensive moderation than ours at present, and I think the level we were operating at before was perfectly appropriate.


I think there is a role for moderators to stop any blatant disinformation and to prevent use of expletives and personal attacks, but closing down the thread which is directly intended to discuss the current pandemic from the perspective of the userbase of this forum -- IMO is going to cause this forum to become progressively less relevant and less useful over time.
 

Brumby

Major
My counter argument is that this is SDF and the userbase of the forum is primarily that of Chinese individuals either Chinese nationals or more commonly Chinese individuals living overseas.

As I've mentioned in various moderator discussions, I think we need to start looking at what level of "normal bias" we are willing to tolerate here given the userbase that this forum relies on.

I disagree to two points you are making. SDF stands for Sino Defense Forum and not Sino Political Forum. The injection of politics into the discussions often derail the thread primarily because members get too emotional. SDF is meant to be an apolitical forum and the rules are set up accordingly. Exceptions are granted because of public interest but such threads eventually get derailed. History of such threads have consistently demonstrated this reality. When politically tainted thread become problematic they are locked for a time. What is happening is nothing new.

Secondly, I have a problem with the notion of acceptable "normal bias" especially with regards to any subject that involves politics Allowing political issue is in itself problematic and accommodating "normal bias" is a recipe for disaster. Politics by nature are bias because it is driven by personal ideological preference.

The moment this forum allows political thread the inevitable outcome is that a higher degree of moderation would be needed. The solution is simple, either :
(a)No political threads and hence no moderation needed; or
(b)Allow by exception but moderation would inevitably be needed.

In my view, we had been working with (b) except members get upset when moderators intervene.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I disagree to two points you are making. SDF stands for Sino Defense Forum and not Sino Political Forum. The injection of politics into the discussions often derail the thread primarily because members get too emotional. SDF is meant to be an apolitical forum and the rules are set up accordingly. Exceptions are granted because of public interest but such threads eventually get derailed. History of such threads have consistently demonstrated this reality. When politically tainted thread become problematic they are locked for a time. What is happening is nothing new.

Secondly, I have a problem with the notion of acceptable "normal bias" especially with regards to any subject that involves politics Allowing political issue is in itself problematic and accommodating "normal bias" is a recipe for disaster. Politics by nature are bias because it is driven by personal ideological preference.

The moment this forum allows political thread the inevitable outcome is that a higher degree of moderation would be needed. The solution is simple, either :
(a)No political threads and hence no moderation needed; or
(b)Allow by exception but moderation would inevitably be needed.

In my view, we had been working with (b) except members get upset when moderators intervene.

The issue of discussing topics with political consequences is one that this forum has been facing for over a year now with various topics being temporarily locked down and debated by the moderation team.
Obviously the current trend of some threads with political discussions being temporarily allowed and then temporarily banned (rinse and repeat) is not sustainable and just creates consternation for everyone.

Whether the formal inclusion of political topics are beneficial or not can really be asked by the question of -- "would SDF benefit more if political topics were allowed vs banned".
If such political topics were allowed, and if rules were put in place to seek to retain the users who are primarily of Chinese identity/background that forms the backbone of SDF's PLA watching activities, it means some of our users who have political beliefs contrary to the accepted normal will find their posts to be made to feel unwelcome, but that is also how many other defense function as well -- accepting the relevant political biases and norms of the communities are often the price of admission for if you want to observe and learn what the military watchers there discuss and share.

E.g. when I lurk on forums like Bharat Rakshak and Pak Defense Forum or some forums for watching the US or UK military, I deliberately don't participate in the threads nor do I look at the political discussions because I know I will probably disagree with many of their opinions, but I respect that they are a community of many like minded individuals with biases different to mine, so I'm going to respect their biases.


Furthermore, the other major English language PLA watching forum -- China Defense Forum/CDF -- explicitly has a number of thread categories including some for politics and economics where many debates and discussions about those topics are had, but it arguably does as good a job of PLA watching if not better than SDF.
 

KYli

Brigadier
I disagree to two points you are making. SDF stands for Sino Defense Forum and not Sino Political Forum. The injection of politics into the discussions often derail the thread primarily because members get too emotional. SDF is meant to be an apolitical forum and the rules are set up accordingly. Exceptions are granted because of public interest but such threads eventually get derailed. History of such threads have consistently demonstrated this reality. When politically tainted thread become problematic they are locked for a time. What is happening is nothing new.

Secondly, I have a problem with the notion of acceptable "normal bias" especially with regards to any subject that involves politics Allowing political issue is in itself problematic and accommodating "normal bias" is a recipe for disaster. Politics by nature are bias because it is driven by personal ideological preference.

The moment this forum allows political thread the inevitable outcome is that a higher degree of moderation would be needed. The solution is simple, either :
(a)No political threads and hence no moderation needed; or
(b)Allow by exception but moderation would inevitably be needed.

In my view, we had been working with (b) except members get upset when moderators intervene.

Do military discussions often become political? All the time. Do any military defense forums only allow military discussions? The answer is resoundingly no. How many major military forums have been shut down or become very inactive over the years? Plenty. why SDF has all the rules and is apolitical? SDF doesn't have the staffs to handle or rein in off topic discussions. At least that is what I have been told.

Most members of SDF probably would only come to this forum to update recent developments every so often and do not engaged in discussion anymore. Military forums are remnants of the old days when reddit, IG, and Tik Tok are only at their infancy. The real question is does SDF want more active members. Or stay the course and hoping for the best.

Normal bias applies to every member of this forum including you. You yourself are pretty bias. Acceptance of normal bias means that how much leeway moderators would be willing to tolerate til he/she felt certain member has crossed the line. This forum has sizable overseas Chinese members and most of them are pro-China. That is why many not Chinese members felt that they are overwhelmed especially when the pro-China members POVs are drastically different from them which they don't normally get from other forums or platforms.

In the good old days, things are more easy to handle since there isn't open hostility between China and the US. Most members can keep their cool. Ever since the new cold war between China and the US erupted. Chinese members have become more aggressive to response to what they deem double standards, media bias, and lies. And American members on the other hand have become more defensive and felt that the accusations are unfair and that many threads have become too politicized. Of course there is also anti-China members that make things even more complicated. In the end, it is a matter of SDF community and what direction it would want to take. More leeway or stay the course.
 

Brumby

Major
The issue of discussing topics with political consequences is one that this forum has been facing for over a year now with various topics being temporarily locked down and debated by the moderation team.
Obviously the current trend of some threads with political discussions being temporarily allowed and then temporarily banned (rinse and repeat) is not sustainable and just creates consternation for everyone.
I have to disagree on the facts. I have been in this forum for a number of years and topics that are of public interest which also may involve a degree of politics had been allowed. When discussions became too emotional they were locked to allow members to cool off. Such intermittent attempts at moderation in my view serves a vital purpose of circuit breaking while allowing some degree of discourse due to the nature of public interest.

I think you need to sustain your argument that such attempts are not sustainable. If it is an issue of moderation resource then that would be part of the consideration in allowing or disallowing the thread and that includes for how long that remains locked. It is a moderation decision.

Whether the formal inclusion of political topics are beneficial or not can really be asked by the question of -- "would SDF benefit more if political topics were allowed vs banned".
If such political topics were allowed, and if rules were put in place to seek to retain the users who are primarily of Chinese identity/background that forms the backbone of SDF's PLA watching activities, it means some of our users who have political beliefs contrary to the accepted normal will find their posts to be made to feel unwelcome, but that is also how many other defense function as well -- accepting the relevant political biases and norms of the communities are often the price of admission for if you want to observe and learn what the military watchers there discuss and share.

I am aware of your position because you have stated it more than once before. I disagree from the standpoint from personal observation on members and what they tend to post. There are a handful of members who are primarily more interested in advancing certain political views rather than on military related topics. You know because they are very active in political related threads and less so in military topics.

The question is what is meant by "for the benefit of SDF"? Is it a traffic driven site or is it a site for military related matters? What you are advocating is to change the core of SDF's constitution to include political matters as a norm rather than as an exception.
 

Brumby

Major
Do military discussions often become political? All the time. Do any military defense forums only allow military discussions? The answer is resoundingly no. How many major military forums have been shut down or become very inactive over the years? Plenty. why SDF has all the rules and is apolitical? SDF doesn't have the staffs to handle or rein in off topic discussions. At least that is what I have been told.

Most members of SDF probably would only come to this forum to update recent developments every so often and do not engaged in discussion anymore. Military forums are remnants of the old days when reddit, IG, and Tik Tok are only at their infancy. The real question is does SDF want more active members. Or stay the course and hoping for the best.

Normal bias applies to every member of this forum including you. You yourself are pretty bias. Acceptance of normal bias means that how much leeway moderators would be willing to tolerate til he/she felt certain member has crossed the line. This forum has sizable overseas Chinese members and most of them are pro-China. That is why many not Chinese members felt that they are overwhelmed especially when the pro-China members POVs are drastically different from them which they don't normally get from other forums or platforms.

In the good old days, things are more easy to handle since there isn't open hostility between China and the US. Most members can keep their cool. Ever since the new cold war between China and the US erupted. Chinese members have become more aggressive to response to what they deem double standards, media bias, and lies. And American members on the other hand have become more defensive and felt that the accusations are unfair and that many threads have become too politicized. Of course there is also anti-China members that make things even more complicated. In the end, it is a matter of SDF community and what direction it would want to take. More leeway or stay the course.
Please refer to my post #533.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I have to disagree on the facts. I have been in this forum for a number of years and topics that are of public interest which also may involve a degree of politics had been allowed. When discussions became too emotional they were locked to allow members to cool off. Such intermittent attempts at moderation in my view serves a vital purpose of circuit breaking while allowing some degree of discourse due to the nature of public interest.

I think you need to sustain your argument that such attempts are not sustainable. If it is an issue of moderation resource then that would be part of the consideration in allowing or disallowing the thread and that includes for how long that remains locked. It is a moderation decision.



I am aware of your position because you have stated it more than once before. I disagree from the standpoint from personal observation on members and what they tend to post. There are a handful of members who are primarily more interested in advancing certain political views rather than on military related topics. You know because they are very active in political related threads and less so in military topics.

The question is what is meant by "for the benefit of SDF"? Is it a traffic driven site or is it a site for military related matters? What you are advocating is to change the core of SDF's constitution to include political matters as a norm rather than as an exception.


My overall position is that military forums and/or military commentary communities inevitably tend to have overlap with various political topics and a user base that tend to be of a particular political bias depending on what military they are observing.
If SDF were like most of the other military forums and allow for explicit provision of political topics, it would not be the exception, if anything it would be closer to the norm.

I think we all know which users would eventually move on or be "run out of town" if changes were made to the rules, so the real question is whether that would have a positive effect, negative effect or no effect on SDF's PLA watching?

Or, conversely -- do those users (who would be made to feel unwelcome on SDF based on hypothetical allowance of political threads) provide anything useful to the PLA watching threads to begin with?
If those users provide little to no use to the PLA watching threads -- or if those users may be considered to have a history of actively encumbering and cluttering PLA watching threads while also having a history of engaging in some of the political threads themselves -- then is it beneficial or not beneficial for the forum if those users eventually stopped having an active presence on the forum beyond lurking?
 
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