CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[Tam]

If it is based at Qingdao.


Then the Kunming should had been deployed at the NSF seeing that it was then the most technologically advanced and powerful ship at the time. But it got slotted to the SSF instead. And funny you should bring up Nanchang, because if we go by that the idea that China names ship according to where they are stationed geographically then Nanchang should be stationed at the ESF due to the location of the said city.
Also China's naval aviation for carriers is less then 2 decades old so history has little to do with this.

Destroyer names have no connection to where they are deployed. After all Hohhot which is named after an Inner Mongolian city, is stationed in the SSF.

Nanchang is stationed in Qingdao, where the NSF is. It shows you how the priorities have changed since the time the Kunming was allocated.

LIkewise, when the two Type 051C were introduced, they were the most powerful air defense destroyers in the fleet, and they both went to the NSF.

The issue of the capital region only really pops up if the enemy plans for a invasion or the air force fails to deter them. Neither scenarios are possible IMO. That was how China's strategy when during the Cold War against Russia. While geopolitical the NSF area is the least likely among all 3 areas for tensions to erupt.
And SCS & Melacca straits are geographically farther from the Chinese mainland, so carrier aviation will be more crucial in that area.

Your opinion, not the CCP's. CCP should want the best assets closest its capital city.

Then why would you include that in your original post ? I would disagree with second assessment but I suggest we agree to disagree at this point.


Considering the amount of preparation that goes into the commissioning and how meticulous the ceremony was conducted. A surprise is not the Shandong's visit to Sanya, you do not spring a surprise on Xi Jinping especially one that requires him to travel the near length of the country to attend to.

Amount of preparation? The commission seemed like a rush, and only because some higher ups may have decided this change in plan because of XJP's trip to Macau and he may have already has a planned visit to the SSF.

I am more of the opinion that Shandong sounds more intimidating that Hainan and that in terms of importance and industrial might Shandong ranks higher. Hence the name, but we will have to see in the future.

This sounds nonsense.

To clarify and to rectify my original post, modern anti-growth paint is somewhat neutered due to enviromental concerns. In the past tin based paint was so effective that it kills even the surrounding microorganism, but that is Western concerns and what China thinks about it is unknown . On the flip side other navies in the area had been operating large ships for longer periods yet they are not dry docked that early into their careers. The Japan with the Izumo for one, we can agrue that helicopters and the F-35 VTOL will not require it to be functioning at top speed, but significant barnacle growth will also have a negative effect on fuel consumption.

Do you actually count or document the time they are dry docked? Yokosuka has plenty of facilities including dry docks.

Waters around cities tend to be nutrient rich, helped by human waste and sewage after all. You got dense Chinese cities which are among the most populous in the world, and you bet the waters around these cites are nutrient rich. Both Dalian and Qingdao are perfect for such spawning conditions. The north and east coast of China near the shores have reported things like massive algal and jellyfish blooms. Plenty of food for things to grow on. One time the Liaoning could not sortie, due to the massive jellyfish bloom, and orders were made to deploy fishermen to clean up the jellyfish to clear a way for the carrier.

Then you have a ship that sits on the pier much of its time, only taking short trips for trials. You got the perfect conditions for barnacle growth. You cannot use Japan's examples like Izumo because both Izuma and Kaga are constantly on the move, including patrols in the South China Seas and in the Philippine Seas. The way to reduce barnacle growth is to keep ships moving. I bet you Chinese navy ships tend to barnacle more because they tend to stay more in the bases and do shorter patrols because the force remains regionally defense oriented.

Significant barnacle growth will have an effect on the top speed of the carrier, which means it will affect its launch speed. That has an indirect effect on the load out of the J-15s it can launch and from the videos the PLAN released, not too impressive considering the previous video of the Liaoning had the planes launch with more ordinance.

The Shandong went sustained full speed in both trips in and out of the SCS with satellite photos showing she leaving her escorts behind. She could be doing take offs and landings, and testing her engines on the sustained runs. Back in the Sanya port, she was heavily circulating water to cool her power plant, which indicates she had undergone sustained running.

She's back in her Dalian dry dock, but one thing to note is that Barracks ship 89 didn't accompany her this time. This points to her stay in the dry dock is likely to be short, or Barracks ship 89 will go back to Dalian to serve as living quarters to the workers servicing the Shandong.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Destroyer names have no connection to where they are deployed. After all Hohhot which is named after an Inner Mongolian city, is stationed in the SSF.

Nanchang is stationed in Qingdao, where the NSF is. It shows you how the priorities have changed since the time the Kunming was allocated.

LIkewise, when the two Type 051C were introduced, they were the most powerful air defense destroyers in the fleet, and they both went to the NSF.

Still it does not change the fact that the SSF got the 052D first, not the NSF. And that names are not tied to where the ship is planned to be deploy, as that being the case Nanchang would have been in the SSF instead. Nanchang going to the Qingdao may have more to do with the Liaoning being there so the PLAN is eager to test out a new component to the CBG concept.

Your opinion, not the CCP's. CCP should want the best assets closest its capital city.

And I suppose you would have an inside link to what the CCP's politburo is thinking regarding strategic priority ? In area, your opinion would be as good as mine. And if the SCS was not that important then the major renovations would not be undertaken there for the base, or the artifical island building. And it does not change the fact that if the Malacca strait was cut off, China's oil supply and export route will be severely effected.

Amount of preparation? The commission seemed like a rush, and only because some higher ups may have decided this change in plan because of XJP's trip to Macau and he may have already has a planned visit to the SSF.

IMO the commission looks just as orderly as any other.

This sounds nonsense.

Sounds logical to me, there is a certain level of prestige and honor for having a carrier named after one's province.

Do you actually count or document the time they are dry docked? Yokosuka has plenty of facilities including dry docks.

Waters around cities tend to be nutrient rich, helped by human waste and sewage after all. You got dense Chinese cities which are among the most populous in the world, and you bet the waters around these cites are nutrient rich. Both Dalian and Qingdao are perfect for such spawning conditions. The north and east coast of China near the shores have reported things like massive algal and jellyfish blooms. Plenty of food for things to grow on. One time the Liaoning could not sortie, due to the massive jellyfish bloom, and orders were made to deploy fishermen to clean up the jellyfish to clear a way for the carrier.

Then you have a ship that sits on the pier much of its time, only taking short trips for trials. You got the perfect conditions for barnacle growth. You cannot use Japan's examples like Izumo because both Izuma and Kaga are constantly on the move, including patrols in the South China Seas and in the Philippine Seas. The way to reduce barnacle growth is to keep ships moving. I bet you Chinese navy ships tend to barnacle more because they tend to stay more in the bases and do shorter patrols because the force remains regionally defense oriented.

Significant barnacle growth will have an effect on the top speed of the carrier, which means it will affect its launch speed. That has an indirect effect on the load out of the J-15s it can launch and from the videos the PLAN released, not too impressive considering the previous video of the Liaoning had the planes launch with more ordinance.

The Shandong went sustained full speed in both trips in and out of the SCS with satellite photos showing she leaving her escorts behind. She could be doing take offs and landings, and testing her engines on the sustained runs. Back in the Sanya port, she was heavily circulating water to cool her power plant, which indicates she had undergone sustained running.

She's back in her Dalian dry dock, but one thing to note is that Barracks ship 89 didn't accompany her this time. This points to her stay in the dry dock is likely to be short, or Barracks ship 89 will go back to Dalian to serve as living quarters to the workers servicing the Shandong.

[/QUOTE]
Japan suffers the same issues that China faces, not least due to currents carrying rich nutrient waters to their coast from China. Jellyfish bloom is also a major headache for Japan as well. In fact warmer waters around the Phillipines are more conducive to barnacle growth.
The lack of a Barracks ship can also be attributed to the fact that the PLAN had managed to find accommodations for the crew else where ,or that they are transferred to the Liaoning for the time being.

 

[Tam]

Still it does not change the fact that the SSF got the 052D first, not the NSF. And that names are not tied to where the ship is planned to be deploy, as that being the case Nanchang would have been in the SSF instead. Nanchang going to the Qingdao may have more to do with the Liaoning being there so the PLAN is eager to test out a new component to the CBG concept.

The SSF got the 052D long ago. You seem to have no idea that things can have changed then. There are periodic adjustments to the PLAN policy in light of external and internal forces and situations.

NSF got the Liaoning. First.
NSF got the Type 055. First.
NSF got a huge renovation of the Qingdao base and port, for carrier and large ship accommodation.
Oh, this is the most important. The PLAN's 70th anniversary naval parade, was held in the NSF base. Xi Jing Ping's review ship, the 117 Xining, is assigned to the NSF.

And I suppose you would have an inside link to what the CCP's politburo is thinking regarding strategic priority ? In area, your opinion would be as good as mine. And if the SCS was not that important then the major renovations would not be undertaken there for the base, or the artifical island building. And it does not change the fact that if the Malacca strait was cut off, China's oil supply and export route will be severely effected.

Do you need a link for everything they need to do? When all it takes is a sufficient analysis of their actions? Actions speak louder than words.

PLAN holds its 70th at NSF base of Qingdao, which is perhaps the largest naval base the PLAN has. That tells you a lot of things. You don't seem to keep track that ESF and NSF activities have been bustling lately, with naval aircraft frequently poking into the Sea of Japan and Miyako Straits.

IMO the commission looks just as orderly as any other.

It looks a bit bare and not as pompous as it should be.

Japan suffers the same issues that China faces, not least due to currents carrying rich nutrient waters to their coast from China. Jellyfish bloom is also a major headache for Japan as well. In fact warmer waters around the Phillipines are more conducive to barnacle growth.

Barnacle growth is a problem everywhere, but most importantly the more nutrient rich the waters are, like when waters are rich in nitrogen and phosphorus.

Japanese cities probably handle their waste waters better than Chinese cities, not to mention the run off from Chinese mainland is from continent, which means far larger areas of agricultural land that contain fertilizer that can be carried away by the rain and into the rivers. Barnacles are filter feeders. The filthier the water, the more plankton rich is the water, the better the grow. Water around the Philippines tends to be crystal clear, while coastal water you see in China, is dirty, murky and brown. I don't recall the coastal waters in Japan to be as bad as in China.

The lack of a Barracks ship can also be attributed to the fact that the PLAN had managed to find accommodations for the crew else where ,or that they are transferred to the Liaoning for the time being.

Nope. Liaoning has ship #88. The use of the barracks ship during the ship construction is to bring the work crew right next to the ship, and they don't have to transit from their homes.

 

[lcloo]

CV17 Shandong

 

[Deleted member 13312]

The SSF got the 052D long ago. You seem to have no idea that things can have changed then. There are periodic adjustments to the PLAN policy in light of external and internal forces and situations.

NSF got the Liaoning. First.
NSF got the Type 055. First.
NSF got a huge renovation of the Qingdao base and port, for carrier and large ship accommodation.
Oh, this is the most important. The PLAN's 70th anniversary naval parade, was held in the NSF base. Xi Jing Ping's review ship, the 117 Xining, is assigned to the NSF.

5 years bare counts as "long ago" in terms of naval planning. And I dispute the notion that the Liaoning is under NSF command rather than it being the issue of closer to training facilities. Nanchang yes but that disproves the idea that ships must be named according to where they are deployed.
Also for the SCS review, XJP review ship was the Changsha of the SSF.

Do you need a link for everything they need to do? When all it takes is a sufficient analysis of their actions? Actions speak louder than words.

If it helps to clarify matters then yes, and China's expansion of the Sanya base and the place where the Shandong was comissioned speaks volumes in this case.

PLAN holds its 70th at NSF base of Qingdao, which is perhaps the largest naval base the PLAN has. That tells you a lot of things. You don't seem to keep track that ESF and NSF activities have been bustling lately, with naval aircraft frequently poking into the Sea of Japan and Miyako Straits.

Having the naval review at Qingdao makes sense from a historical view, it is as you say the FIRST naval base of significant importance. And since the review involved foreign participants I can imagine that they would not want any unwanted attention towards Sanya which has much more significant facilities especially for nuclear submarines the SSF has also been busy as well with its disputes in the SCS, in fact some of the most exciting encounters in recent history had taken place in the area.

It looks a bit bare and not as pompous as it should be.

We can argue on the degree of pomposity but it cannot be denied that it has all the significance of a major commissioning, the handing of the flag of command by XJP to the ship's captain is something that does not happen on a regular basis. Since XJP had made it clear that extravagance is not something he likes that may be a factor in this.

Barnacle growth is a problem everywhere, but most importantly the more nutrient rich the waters are, like when waters are rich in nitrogen and phosphorus.

Japanese cities probably handle their waste waters better than Chinese cities, not to mention the run off from Chinese mainland is from continent, which means far larger areas of agricultural land that contain fertilizer that can be carried away by the rain and into the rivers. Barnacles are filter feeders. The filthier the water, the more plankton rich is the water, the better the grow. Water around the Philippines tends to be crystal clear, while coastal water you see in China, is dirty, murky and brown. I don't recall the coastal waters in Japan to be as bad as in China.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They do, it is just not reported as much

Nope. Liaoning has ship #88. The use of the barracks ship during the ship construction is to bring the work crew right next to the ship, and they don't have to transit from their homes.

But back then Liaoning was the only carrier in the PLAN, with 2 carriers in service the is no reason to set one crew on ice when the other ship can take on the duties of training. Which is one of the greatest advantage of a multi carrier build.

 

[Tam]

5 years bare counts as "long ago" in terms of naval planning. And I dispute the notion that the Liaoning is under NSF command rather than it being the issue of closer to training facilities. Nanchang yes but that disproves the idea that ships must be named according to where they are deployed.

Like you have no idea that the PLAN reviews and reevaluates plans...after five years.

Liaoning and Type 055 assignments are far more recent events, and better reflect the current PLAN top brass thought.

Also for the SCS review, XJP review ship was the Changsha of the SSF.

Oh please, I posted those pictures. The review ship was the 117 Xining, and there are even overhead pictures of her being towed so she can be moored in that position. She's currently in Iran doing exercises, which is another highly visible event.

If it helps to clarify matters then yes, and China's expansion of the Sanya base and the place where the Shandong was comissioned speaks volumes in this case.

You neglect Qingdao's own expansion, and the fact that the carrier was named Shandong. Maybe you also missed the fact that it might have been a bit cold in Qingdao in December to hold ceremonies?

Having the naval review at Qingdao makes sense from a historical view, it is as you say the FIRST naval base of significant importance. And since the review involved foreign participants I can imagine that they would not want any unwanted attention towards Sanya which has much more significant facilities especially for nuclear submarines the SSF has also been busy as well with its disputes in the SCS, in fact some of the most exciting encounters in recent history had taken place in the area.

Qingdao is the naval base closest to the Beijing capital region. Enough said. More CCP hardliners come out from out from the northern regions than the south. Each likes to have a more protective presence in their north for their home town.

NSF faces South Korea, the Japanese Navy and the US 7th Fleet. Compare that with what the SSF faces.

We can argue on the degree of pomposity but it cannot be denied that it has all the significance of a major commissioning, the handing of the flag of command by XJP to the ship's captain is something that does not happen on a regular basis. Since XJP had made it clear that extravagance is not something he likes that may be a factor in this.

The PLAN's 70th was a bit pompous. Shandong's commissioning felt rushed and not a lot of attendance.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They do, it is just not reported as much


But back then Liaoning was the only carrier in the PLAN, with 2 carriers in service the is no reason to set one crew on ice when the other ship can take on the duties of training. Which is one of the greatest advantage of a multi carrier build.

Each carrier has one barrack ship servicing it. Period. The second barracks ship never made its appearance until you got the Shandong being built in later stages.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Like you have no idea that the PLAN reviews and reevaluates plans...after five years.

Liaoning and Type 055 assignments are far more recent events, and better reflect the current PLAN top brass thought.

No worse then yours I did imagine, you keep saying that Liaoning is under the jurisdiction of the NSF but as far as I can understand through their state media. They are keen to emphasize the term "PLAN naval ship" rather than any regional prefix, which is telling.

Oh please, I posted those pictures. The review ship was the 117 Xining, and there are even overhead pictures of her being towed so she can be moored in that position. She's currently in Iran doing exercises, which is another highly visible event.

For the Qingdao review yes, but for the SCS it was Changsha, it is even confirmed in state media. Goes to show that XJP goes with the ship from the respective area where the review is to be held, rather than importance.

You neglect Qingdao's own expansion, and the fact that the carrier was named Shandong. Maybe you also missed the fact that it might have been a bit cold in Qingdao in December to hold ceremonies?

In the same way you also neglected the expansion done for Sanya, or that the commissioning ceremony was done in Sanya. Historical and security concerns is enough justification for the review to be held at Qingdao.

Qingdao is the naval base closest to the Beijing capital region. Enough said. More CCP hardliners come out from out from the northern regions than the south. Each likes to have a more protective presence in their north for their home town.

While the Southern regions are poised to become the main economic power houses of China due to the tech revolution.

NSF faces South Korea, the Japanese Navy and the US 7th Fleet. Compare that with what the SSF faces.

SSF faces the Australian navy which is just as competent as Japan as well as US air force assets based on the mainland, and also the Indian navy on the opposite side of the strait. The geographical challenges alone places a premium on naval aviation. While South Korea has a security treaty with the US sure, politically they are the least likely to go to war with China for the forseeable future. In fact socially they have more to quarrel with Japan than China.

The PLAN's 70th was a bit pompous. Shandong's commissioning felt rushed and not a lot of attendance.

Considering that it was an international event, while the Shandong was a private matter. The level of attendance is not suprising. And if actions matter more than words then the Shandong should had been commissioned in Qingdao instead.

Each carrier has one barrack ship servicing it. Period. The second barracks ship never made its appearance until you got the Shandong being built in later stages.

That does not remove the fact that Liaoning can host Shandong's crew in the mean time.

 

[Tam]

No worse then yours I did imagine, you keep saying that Liaoning is under the jurisdiction of the NSF but as far as I can understand through their state media. They are keen to emphasize the term "PLAN naval ship" rather than any regional prefix, which is telling.

It uses Qingdao as its main base. Who do you think that falls under. Whose ships do you think would more often escort the Liaoning?

For the Qingdao review yes, but for the SCS it was Changsha, it is even confirmed in state media. Goes to show that XJP goes with the ship from the respective area where the review is to be held, rather than importance.

That was the SCS review. The 117 Xining is used with the 70th PLAN anniversary review, set in Qingdao.

In the same way you also neglected the expansion done for Sanya, or that the commissioning ceremony was done in Sanya. Historical and security concerns is enough justification for the review to be held at Qingdao.

And I keep telling you --- and that's also part of the report by Taiwan intelligence --- the trip to Sanya is done because it was too cold in Qingdao. Ships from the north would occasionally come down to the south in the winter months to exercise in the warmer weather. How many times do I have to tell you over and over that? That is something Taiwan authorities have long observed over the years.

While the Southern regions are poised to become the main economic power houses of China due to the tech revolution.

Not important at all. China's tech revolution is actually well distributed. Where do you think Huawei's main research center is located at? Tencent? Loongson? None of it also matters.

The fleets being faced by the SSF is a lot more weaker than the NSF. Its been a while that they needed to redress this balance.

SSF faces the Australian navy which is just as competent as Japan, and also the Indian navy on the opposite side of the strait. The geographical challenges alone places a premium on naval aviation. While South Korea has a security treaty with the US sure, politically they are the least likely to go to war with China for the forseeable future. In fact socially they have more to quarrel with Japan than China.

Australia is much farther from the Chinese coast than Japan or S. Korea. India is even further away. Japan and S. Korea has navies stronger than India and Australia, not to mention the 7th Fleet is based in Japan.

Your attempt to question the military superiority the NSF faces on their side is quite frankly ridiculous to even brought it up.

Considering that it was an international event, while the Shandong was a private matter. The level of attendance is not suprising.

What's missing is the other CCP higher ups, Politburo, etc,. People who may not go to Sanya due to the sudden notice, but could easily go to Qingdao from Beijing because its much closer.

That does not remove the fact that Liaoning can host Shandong's crew in the mean time.

There is no fact. Each of the barracks ships are made for each of the ships' crews. Period. That's why there are two of these ships in the first place.

 

[by78]

Not only in the shipyard, but in the drydock!?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 56331

Is that an up-to-date photo? I ask because I've seen a satellite image from yesterday showing the carrier still outside the dry dock. Also, other earlier images show the dry dock as already being occupied by a large civilian ship that's under construction.

 

[Deino]

Is that an up-to-date photo? I ask because I've seen a satellite image from yesterday showing the carrier still outside the dry dock. Also, other earlier images show the dry dock as already being occupied by a large civilian ship that's under construction.

I need to correct my post from yesterday - sorry for that - but as it seems by the video below (thanks to @Ivan Lan), the CV-17 'Shandong' is not in the drydock at Dalian shipyard, since this is occupied by a large civiil vessel.

By the way it gives a great comparison to the size of a Type 055 DDG.

(First image Via @仙居 from Weibo)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!