Hong-Kong Protests

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
As an individual, that person is free not to identify as Chinese if they did not wish to. However, that does not give them the authority to change the affiliation of Hong Kong. Just because that particular individual does not identify as Chinese does not mean Hong Kong is not Chinese. It does not matter what they were raised to believe, as that is only their own personal beliefs. China's sovereign jurisdiction over Hong Kong is not invalidated just because some people long to be British colonial subjects.

Likewise, there is no point arguing with someone over personal beliefs. @Josh Luo argued that the Chinese government needed to understand those people. I completely disagree. There is nothing more to understand here apart from the fact that these people do not believe themselves to be Chinese. You cannot make someone want to be Chinese, so there is really nothing to understand.
While there is no need to understand hardcore anti-Chinese but to stamp them out, there is very much the need to understand Hong Kong as a whole. Is it made of many of these people? Or is the majority opinion that they wish to be Chinese, but with some grievances, or are they confused what they are because of Hong Kong's odd history? Or perhaps the silent majority is proud to be Chinese Right now, I'm hearing everything from everyone and I just don't know. It is very important to understand Hong Kong as a whole and what the prevailing attitude is in order to calibrate the correct response. You certainly don't want to assume based on toxic Western misinformation that Hong Kong is all anti-China self-hating thugs with no hope left and end up killing (or radicalizing) people who wanted to be Chinese but were briefly led astray by radicals/foreign agents. This is the type of severe miscalculation that would best serve the anti-Chinese forces.
 
Maybe I need to go live there to understand but right now, what I've been trying to figure out but can't get a consensus that makes sense on, is an answer to the question, "What is Hong Kong?" I have heard people say it is made of a silent majority of good people who know that they are Chinese and support China having their daily lives threatened by foreign-instigated riots; I've heard that it's made of people trying to be Chinese but tormented by confusion and torn by hesitation, and I've heard that it is a bastion of anti-Chinese CCP hatred. I don't know; I really might have to go there to find out but I feel like I'm going to get into an awful lots of fights in the process. All I can conclude at this point is, if these people know they are Chinese and are at least happy to live normal lives contributing to the economy, then there is reason to be soft and take our time with them. But if it is some stronghold of anti-Chinese hatred with everyone jumping at the chance to help the CIA subvert the Chinese government, then talks are useless. Tanks and guns are the only solution to cleaning it up. There can be no anti-Chinese stronghold allowed to exist in China.

Perhaps it is all of the above and more. I have to refer you to the excellent analysis video posted by Hendrik2000 in post #20 on this thread. It is helpful to think of the Hong Kong population as diverse groups of Chinese multigenerational refugees who share the problems of "adaptation fatigue" and "slave mentality" from the past almost two centuries of tumultuous Chinese history as they are people who descend from multiple generations seeking stability during drastic circumstantial change only to have the circumstances drastically change on them again and again, sometimes in 180 degrees.

Whoa there, let's not be bolting down the front door with wood torn from the back door. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tibet, are all, definitively and inexorably, parts of China. No independence movement anywhere will, or should, succeed.

I believe Vesicles was referring to freedom to maintain diverse cultural and ethnic heritage rather than political separation. At the same time this overlaps with the realm of bigger picture international power politics and foreign intervention.

While there is no need to understand hardcore anti-Chinese but to stamp them out, there is very much the need to understand Hong Kong as a whole. Is it made of many of these people? Or is the majority opinion that they wish to be Chinese, but with some grievances, or are they confused what they are because of Hong Kong's odd history? Or perhaps the silent majority is proud to be Chinese. It is very important to understand Hong Kong as a whole and what the prevailing attitude is in order to calibrate the correct response. You certainly don't want to assume that they are all anti-China self-hating thugs with no hope left and end up killing (or radicalizing) people who wanted to be Chinese but were briefly led astray by radicals/foreign agents. This is the type of severe miscalculation that would best serve the anti-Chinese forces.

Cannot agree more. And indeed this is something that China the country, Chinese society, and all stripes of Chinese people around the world have to figure out to restore Chinese-ness to its historical inclusive greatness.
 

solarz

Brigadier
While there is no need to understand hardcore anti-Chinese but to stamp them out, there is very much the need to understand Hong Kong as a whole. Is it made of many of these people? Or is the majority opinion that they wish to be Chinese, but with some grievances, or are they confused what they are because of Hong Kong's odd history? Or perhaps the silent majority is proud to be Chinese Right now, I'm hearing everything from everyone and I just don't know. It is very important to understand Hong Kong as a whole and what the prevailing attitude is in order to calibrate the correct response. You certainly don't want to assume based on toxic Western misinformation that Hong Kong is all anti-China self-hating thugs with no hope left and end up killing (or radicalizing) people who wanted to be Chinese but were briefly led astray by radicals/foreign agents. This is the type of severe miscalculation that would best serve the anti-Chinese forces.

Ultimately, I don't believe that matters. Beliefs are ephemeral, and are always shaped by the environment. Take, for example, the Heaven and Earth Society, those ardent Ming loyalists who wished to topple the Qing dynasty and restore the Ming dynasty. At one point, they numbered in the hundreds of thousands and were spread all over the Qing empire. However, as time passed and the Qing emperors proved to be capable rulers, the people moved on, and the Society faded away, degenerating into today's Triads.

Hong Kongers range from Jackie Chan to Joshua Wong, and every shade in between. Most simply want to lead their normal lives, paying little attention to political matters. The only question that matters to Beijing is whether or not they want to continue this "one country, two systems" experiment. If they do, then they should let HKers sort out their own mess. If they don't, then they need to dismantle the HK political and legal system and replace it with the PRC system.

My personal opinion is that China should continue with 1C2S, at least until HK starts to burn, literally. I hope that does not come to pass, but prepare for the worst and all that.

Perhaps you feel that you have a more personal stake in this, as you mentioned that your girlfriend is in and from Hong Kong. I can only say that if you see a future where you will have plenty of interaction with HK, you will have to accept the fact that there are significant anti-PRC sentiments, and even some anti-China sentiments. I don't think that comes as a surprise, considering how they've been calling Mainland visitors "locusts" for years now.

Nevertheless, for every Joshua Wong, there is a Jackie Chan:



 

Brumby

Major
How China is weaponising its propaganda-machine media to bring down Hong Kong protesters

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Over the past few months, your news feed has no doubt been flooded with footage from Hong Kong’s massive pro-democracy protests.

Hundreds of thousands of people are continuing to take to the streets each weekend as a powerful symbolic rejection of mainland China’s increasing reach.

Only those residing in the mainland aren’t getting this side of the story. At first, they were barely seeing anything about the demonstrations. Now, the only picture being presented to them is one of violent thugs lashing out at authority figures, and showing unwarranted disrespect to a benevolent Beijing.

In other words, the one thing China initially kept away from the Hong Kong protests is now its biggest weapon — its state media.

It’s a careful tactic by an authoritarian government seeking to take control of an increasingly uncontrollable situation.

“The Chinese Government is trying to weaponise the protests. Rather than trying to completely hide them from the Chinese people they’re employing tactics to highlight violence and say these are ‘terrorists’ working at the beheadst of foreign governments, like the US,” Dr Malcolm Davis, a senior analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, told news.com.au.

“They’re trying to shape the narrative to their needs.”

And it could reach a bloody end point.

HOW CHINA IS USING FAKE NEWS AS A WEAPON

When the Hong Kong protests started, China’s state media was largely silent. As far as its people were concerned, there was nothing worth mentioning taking place south of Shenzhen.

When the first major protests began on June 9, the Chinese Government sought to downplay it, with state media reports erroneously claiming the majority of people were rallying in defence of joining the mainland.

This is typical of the Xi Jinping-led government, which runs its own regulated version of the internet through a Great Firewall that blocks content it doesn’t want its citizens to see, including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and various western news outlets.

At this time, the demonstrators were coming up with ingenious ways of forcing mainland citizens to digest their message, air-dropping memes and flyers in simplified Chinese to strangers at Kowloon’s popular metro stations frequented by mainland tourists.

But fast-forward 10 weeks, and the Xi Jinping-led government’s state media has embraced the protests, actively pushing footage and editorials distorting the events to send a message both to mainland residents and Chinese citizens abroad.

Their daily coverage routinely describes the protests as “riots”, and the protesters as “thugs” and “radicals”.

Any footage or events with angles that could lend sympathy or support to the mainland are amplified across China’s state media channels.

Take, for example, the
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.

In western media and online, the man was derided as “trash” and “entitled” for degrading the protesters’ plight over something as trivial as a missed flight.

But nationalistic state media outlet The Global Times shared the video on Twitter as proof of foreigners defending the mainland over the Hong Kong protesters, stating that the protesters “got in the way” and that the defender “fought back”.

There are increasing instances of Chinese state media now posting out-and-out fake news about the demonstrations.

For example, one widely shared video on Weibo shows a female protester who lost an eye from a rubber bullet last weekend appearing to accept payment from other protesters, suggesting the incident was staged.

The woman accepting the cash in the video was not the same protester who lost an eye. Regardless, China’s state television network posted the video on its website, insinuating but stopping short of directly stating that the protesters were paid actors.

In another incident, a video appeared showing a protester with a toy weapon. The China Daily circulated it as erroneous evidence that the protesters were resorting to gun violence.

China’s coverage of the demonstrations aims to spark nationalistic fervour among readers — not just through criticising the protesters, but inspiring support for defenders of the mainland.

Earlier this week, Chinese state media effectively turned one of its reporters into an overnight sensation following his altercation with protesters.

Fu Guohao, a Global Times journalist, was tied up and assaulted after getting into an altercation with demonstrators at Hong Kong airport earlier this week.

According to
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, Fu was taking close-up photos of protesters. Throughout the movement, many protesters have gone to lengths to conceal their identities with face masks, goggles and umbrellas, fearing they will be tracked down by authorities.

When protesters asked him to show his press identification, he reportedly refused and tried to leave.

“He said in English that he was a tourist,” one protester later told reporters. “If he had co-operated and did not try to run away, I believe we would not have had such a big reaction.”

Photos and videos show black-clad protesters using cable ties to bind the man’s hands and legs. As he was being tied up, he said: “I support Hong Kong police. You may now beat me up.”

When mainland China got hold of the story, Fu became an overnight sensation. State media pushed the image of him as a pro-Beijing poster boy. The footage of his restraint spread across Chinese social media, and his expression of support for the Hong Kong police went viral.

China’s People’s Daily newspaper has praised Fu for his “manliness”, writing: “Let’s remember Fu Guohao and his awe-inspiring righteousness while being held. This is what a dignified and upright Chinese should be like.”

Long story short, if you’re a Chinese citizen right now, you’re getting sold a story about thuggish demonstrators hurling bricks at police officers and seeking to topple the system.

The “why” is deliberately hazy, even though the protesters have been transparent with their aims from the start; they want the permanent withdrawal of a controversial extradition bill, an independent investigation into police corruption, and reassurance that mainland China would let them enjoy their civil liberties and freedoms until 2047, as was initially agreed upon.

This is propaganda at its finest. And already, it seems to be making its mark.
 

Brumby

Major
China Squirms in Global Spotlight on Hong Kong

The Chinese Communist Party political narrative of how one achieves national cohesion is based on three tenets: citizens are materialistic beings who value only material things; centralised and authoritarian rule is best placed to deliver stability and order; and only coercion can stave off chaos and discord when dealing with malcontent populations.

Events in Hong Kong show this narrative is self-serving, delusional and counterproductive.

As a result, the party is facing diabolic dilemmas and problems of its own making.

The protests, which began in March, were initially triggered by discontent about the introduction of a bill that would allow people in Hong Kong to be extradited to China at the latter’s request. Protesters have since voiced other grievances such as the broken promise of genuine universal suffrage (Beijing maintaining its ability to hand-pick the chief executive and other candidates), police violence, political prisoners and the systematic erosion of political and individual freedoms promised by China in its 1984 treaty with the United Kingdom and which is enshrined in its Basic Law.

How does Beijing frame the problem? Could it be that Hong Kongers really do want to preserve the way of life left behind to them by the British? Impossible.

In an unprecedented news conference late last month, the Communist Party’s Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office blamed Western forces and foreign ideas for fomenting trouble. But the apparent good news for Beijing is that many could be saved from these mischievous ideas if granted greater economic opportunity and more affordable housing.

Although an estimated million people from a territory of 7.3 million people took part in one protest on June 9 alone, Beijing has dismissed many of them as radicals committing violent crimes. How best to respond to these criminals? They will be punished severely and without hesitation.

And if that doesn’t work, the Chinese Defence Ministry has indicated it is open to using the military to impose order if requested by its hand-picked chief executive and her deputies on the island.

The Communist Party ought to know that taming a population by a combination of material incentives and coercion to deliver order and stability is a sham. Since 2007, China’s annual spending on domestic security — which includes a million-strong People’s Armed Police — has tripled to about $300 billion, which is one-fifth more than it spends on the People’s Liberation Army. In Xinjiang, the increase has been more than ten-fold, from $1.15 billion in 2007 to more than $12 billion by the end of last year. The other two regions with similar increases in domestic security spending are Tibet and Qinghai Province, where one-quarter of the population is Tibetan.

Largely as a result of state-directed investment, economic growth in both Tibet and Xinjiang was about 9 per cent last year — well above the national average of about 6.5 per cent. But the carrots and sticks of economic growth and increased coercion and repression do not deliver order or stability when citizens are not permitted to live the way in which they choose or are accustomed.

Indeed, these regions have become even more restive over time because of the Marxist-Leninist intolerance of pluralism and anything falling short of subservient devotion to the CCP.

In important respects Hong Kong is a far more complicated problem for Beijing. The placing of an estimated million Uighurs into detention and re-education camps in Xinjiang has not sparked the degree of international outrage it deserves because there are few reporters and cameras on the ground. In contrast, Hong Kong is one of the world’s most international cities. Any brutal crackdown in full view of the world would be disastrous for China’s standing and the island’s status as a global financial centre. A financial catastrophe and exodus precipitated by violence committed by Chinese authorities would be a humiliation for the party and perhaps even an existential political moment for Xi Jinping.

Conversely, acceding to the demands of protesters will raise fears that doing so will only embolden protesters in Hong Kong and elsewhere. The recent chants of “reclaim Hong Kong” and “revolution of our time” would have struck fear in the hearts of every Politburo member. Either way, Beijing’s false claim that it offers a better approach to national cohesion has been exposed. Significant numbers of richer and poorer residents throughout its provinces and regions remain restless and afraid but defiant.

The likelihood is that there will continue to be only ritual democracy in Hong Kong in that the people can vote but the leaders must first secure Beijing’s approval. In the best-case scenario, the erosion of freedoms and liberties could be halted temporarily.

China might eventually get its way with Hong Kong but a greater prize has become even more elusive. It has long held up Hong Kong as proof it was sincere in offering Taiwan significant autonomy and even permission to retain its own armed forces under a special “one country, two systems” deal with Taipei upon unification. Developments in Hong Kong ends any chance Taipei will take Beijing at its word.

Indeed, Taiwan’s President Tsai Ing-wen, who openly supported the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong and is advocating for greater distance from Beijing, has seen her popularity boosted. At the same time, the stocks of the opposition Kuomintang Party and other more pro-China candidates have fallen.

The Communist Party needs a new narrative, a new approach to national cohesion, and a different approach to winning the hearts and minds of those it seeks to rule.
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BBC Hardtalk

"You never had it out of British, you are asking of China what you were never given by the British. They never gave you universal suffrage! They put it in the basic law but they never gave it to you."

"Do you think that the Britain when it signed up the deal with China, engaged in a certain degree of self-delusion about what would actually happen in reality?"

"The reality is Hong Kong stands on its own."

"

Let me take this opportunity to clarify a couple of facts that are persistently misrepresented in the vast majority of Western, English language coverage of Hong Kong, and definitely deliberately misrepresented by the Hong Kong anti-China opposition and protesters. If you are in the know or bother to research the facts you will find that is what I state here:

Hong Kong is not guaranteed autonomy or semi-autonomy. Hong Kong is a SAR = Special Administrative Region of China. This is different from and the acronym does not stand for semi-autonomous. Hong Kong's unique administrative/governance/legal infrastructure is mostly preserved (not completely unchanged nor unchangeable by Hong Kong's authorities) with a degree of autonomy as authorized by the central government per the Basic Law.

China granted Hong Kong people universal suffrage, which is one person one vote. What the opposition demands is the direct election of the Chief Executive (approximately mayor) via elimination of the rough equivalents of the US electoral college, party primaries, and functional/occupational representatives in the legislature who are hybrid union-rep-industry-lobbyist-legislators.

The protesters have on numerous occasions repeatedly committed and instigated violence, verbally and physically harassed and attacked other locals, police, and tourists, destroyed and vandalized public and private property, and deliberately disrupted and obstructed public and private transportation.

The protesters' five demands and how they are covered by Western, English language media:
1) Technical legislative withdrawal of the extradition bill. Oft mentioned and usually accurately described.
2) Independent commission to investigate the appropriateness of police actions during the current period of unrest. Oft mentioned but prejudicially described as investigation of police brutality or use of excessive force.
3) Resignation of the current Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam. Sometimes mentioned oft vaguely misrepresented as "greater democracy".
4) The authorities not describe the disruptive, destructive, and violent protests as riots. Not mentioned.
5) The people arrested for disruptive, destructive, and violent actions during protests not be charged as rioters. Not mentioned.

The Hong Kong government had responded to all five demands back when they were first raised. Western, English language media mostly parrot the opposition's blatant lies that the government has yet to respond to any or all of them. The government's responses to the corresponding demands are:
1) Unnecessary and meaningless, true practically but debatable symbolically.
2) Unnecessary as an oversight arm of the government is already investigating the same, definitely debatable but complicated by Hong Kong's legal field and judiciary being filled with Western and Western-trained judges and lawyers who are there because they are good for handling business law but are politically slanted anti-government and anti-China.
3) Obstructionist poison the well non-starter, true enough as it appears few to none who are qualified care to take on the job anyways.
4) Unreasonable non-starter, true.
5) Also unreasonable non-starter, also true.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Perhaps you feel that you have a more personal stake in this, as you mentioned that your girlfriend is in and from Hong Kong. I can only say that if you see a future where you will have plenty of interaction with HK, you will have to accept the fact that there are significant anti-PRC sentiments, and even some anti-China sentiments. I don't think that comes as a surprise, considering how they've been calling Mainland visitors "locusts" for years now.
I have no personal interest other than my love for my country. I can bring my girlfriend anywhere I go, or I can get a new girlfriend, but my country is forever.
Nevertheless, for every Joshua Wong, there is a Jackie Chan:
But I'd like to know what the actual ratio is. At least an accurate ballpark. Pretty hard question, I know. But that's needed to calibrate a correct response. If it's 80% Jackie Chan and 20% terrorist kid then it's worth it to work to heal the wound. But if it's 80% terrorists willing to help the CIA subvert their own country, I think the best way forward is to amputate and regrow. It's just not worth the time and trouble trying to save a population like that and I don't mean to sound inhumane at all. Another time, another scene, we can spend all the resources we have to help re-educate these confused Chinese brethren but right now is a critical time when China is preparing for a dethroning and we just can't have anything jeopardizing that.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
I have no personal interest other than my love for my country. I can bring my girlfriend anywhere I go, or I can get a new girlfriend, but my country is forever.

But I'd like to know what the actual ratio is. At least an accurate ballpark. Pretty hard question, I know.

A ballpark often thrown around is 50/50, take that as you will. My personal feeling is that this question is like Schroedinger's Cat.
 
let me ask the following:
  1. technically, is
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    an organizer of the current Hong Kong protests (LOL please don't give me the CIA now)? and
  2. has the organizer presented list of demands and if so, what would be the link to English version
 
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