Hong-Kong Protests

Josh Luo said:

Hong Kong is a stronghold of ethnic Chinese (and SE Asians) who are fiercely anti-CCP (but not China as a whole). However, if CCP sends in tanks to wipe them off the map, CCP's SOES and well-connected private firms would also lose billions of investment (not to mention additional costs inflicted by sanctions). Therefore, I think military option should be off the table, unless Xi is willing to sacrifice tons of material interests belonging to the CCP, its well-connected businesses (including those owned by Xi's family members), and SOEs.

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Nothing is off the table. Material interests, including money, are all expendable. They are tools for serving the country and to unite the population is one of the greatest services there can be. Sacrifice and use money to achieve your goals and you are the master of wealth; sacrifice your interests and goals to protect wealth and you are its slave. The only question should be whether or not military action is the best way to achieve that goal.

Josh Luo said:

Hong Kong is a stronghold of ethnic Chinese (and SE Asians) who are fiercely anti-CCP (but not China as a whole). However, if CCP sends in tanks to wipe them off the map, CCP's SOES and well-connected private firms would also lose billions of investment (not to mention additional costs inflicted by sanctions). Therefore, I think military option should be off the table, unless Xi is willing to sacrifice tons of material interests belonging to the CCP, its well-connected businesses (including those owned by Xi's family members), and SOEs.

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I agree that there is no need (for the moment) for the central government to intervene in any form. That is to say "no need", but never ever "off the table". Hong Kong is important, but not that important. If troops had been deployed in Beijing, no where in China they could not be deployed.

The bold texts is a outright fiction (or lie) that anti-CCP does not equate to anti-China. It is a simple ploy by the western media to trick Chinese into destruct China, divide and rule, pitting one camp of Chinese against another. This tactic has been used in other forms recently such as:

1. Qing is not Chinese dynasty but a foreign colonial power ruling (Han) Chinese. Manchu against Han.
2. Yuan is not Chinese dynasty like Qing. Mongols against Han.
3. Qidan, Jurchen etc. etc. etc. are foreign. Everyone against everyone.
4. CCP invaded Tibet. Sounds like CCP is bad. Or is the Han Chinese being bad? Unti-CPP only? Or unti-China in truth.
5. and so on and so forth.

Of course, at last, back to the topic. If these Hong Kong people (not all) is ONLY against CCP, I want to ask, and we know the answer (through many polls), how many people in Hong Kong, ESPACIALLY these protesters call themselves Chinese first and foremost? And no, the answer "I am Chinese, and also Hong Konger" does not count, just simple straight answer "I am Chinese.". How many?

The truth is, China is led by CCP today, just like Tang was ruled by Li clan, and Qing was ruled by Asin Gero clan, there is no way to sperate the country from the state, like it or not. Just like a passenger, crew and the captain on a ship is the same thing in the eyes of Poseidon.

Or, did the British in 1839 tell the Chinese peasants "Hey, I love you, but I come here to beat up your emperor for a debt"? What difference would that be anyway for a Chinese? Nothing.

Please stop "CCP this, and CCP that", the country has a name, People's Republic of China.

manqiangrexue said:

Nothing is off the table. Material interests, including money, are all expendable. They are tools for serving the country and to unite the population is one of the greatest services there can be. Sacrifice and use money to achieve your goals and you are the master of wealth; sacrifice your interests and goals to protect wealth and you are its slave. The only question should be whether or not military action is the best way to achieve that goal.

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You may be noble enough to make huge material sacrifices for your country and a political system you believe in. That's you being a good citizen. But what about the corrupt officials and cronies running the CCP system? What about the corrupt officials who take the people's money into their own pockets and then store them in places like HK's banks, US, UK, Australia, while their sons and daughter live like kings and queens abroad? Why are Chinese citizens remain loyal to officials who are clearly kleptocrats and have no interests in caring about the wellbeing of ordinary PRC citizens? So my question is simple, before blaming HK protesters for violence and betray, are Xi and his lieutenants good citizens themselves, or do they also steal from the people and subsequently buy huge mansions overseas for their kids?

taxiya said:

I agree that there is no need (for the moment) for the central government to intervene in any form. That is to say "no need", but never ever "off the table". Hong Kong is important, but not that important. If troops had been deployed in Beijing, no where in China they could not be deployed.

The bold texts is a outright fiction (or lie) that anti-CCP does not equate to anti-China. It is a simple ploy by the western media to trick Chinese into destruct China, divide and rule, pitting one camp of Chinese against another. This tactic has been used in other forms recently such as:

1. Qing is not Chinese dynasty but a foreign colonial power ruling (Han) Chinese. Manchu against Han.
2. Yuan is not Chinese dynasty like Qing. Mongols against Han.
3. Qidan, Jurchen etc. etc. etc. are foreign. Everyone against everyone.
4. CCP invaded Tibet. Sounds like CCP is bad. Or is the Han Chinese being bad? Unti-CPP only? Or unti-China in truth.
5. and so on and so forth.

Of course, at last, back to the topic. If these Hong Kong people (not all) is ONLY against CCP, I want to ask, and we know the answer (through many polls), how many people in Hong Kong, ESPACIALLY these protesters call themselves Chinese first and foremost? And no, the answer "I am Chinese, and also Hong Konger" does not count, just simple straight answer "I am Chinese.". How many?

The truth is, China is led by CCP today, just like Tang was ruled by Li clan, and Qing was ruled by Asin Gero clan, there is no way to sperate the country from the state, like it or not. Just like a passenger, crew and the captain on a ship is the same thing in the eyes of Poseidon.

Or, did the British in 1839 tell the Chinese peasants "Hey, I love you, but I come here to beat up your emperor for a debt"? What difference would that be anyway for a Chinese? Nothing.

Please stop "CCP this, and CCP that", the country has a name, People's Republic of China.

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First, the ethnic conflicts you mentioned do exist, and they are probably more serious than you and I think. That's why see problems in Xinjiang, Tibet, and Hong Kong independence movements. Even without U.S. and Soviet incitements, these movements would still exist. Secondly, while China is indeed ruled by the CCP, are CCP rules benevolent and treating every citizens (including CCP officials themselves) equally before the law?

Josh Luo said:

You may be noble enough to make huge material sacrifices for your country and a political system you believe in. That's you being a good citizen. But what about the corrupt officials and cronies running the CCP system? What about the corrupt officials who take the people's money into their own pockets and then store them in places like HK's banks, US, UK, Australia, while their sons and daughter live like kings and queens abroad? Why are Chinese citizens remain loyal to officials who are clearly kleptocrats and have no interests in caring about the wellbeing of ordinary PRC citizens? So my question is simple, before blaming HK protesters for violence and betray, are Xi and his lieutenants good citizens themselves, or do they also steal from the people and subsequently buy huge mansions overseas for their kids?

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Oh, shit. Everything's clear now. I always thought you had an odd stance but seemed to be on China's side. It seems you were poisoned by the "Love the Chinese people but not its government" crap that the Western media makes up to undermine all Chinese people so let me be clear about this:

China rises under the CCP. The CCP serves China and will guide it to the top of the world. If the CCP falls, China falls into oblivion and fades into history. It's bid to become the strongest nation in the world is gone, at least in your lifetime. There is no mighty Chinese nation without the CCP. If you love China, you love the government that serves and guides it. If not, then you hate China and you want its people to be condemned to live without relevance or pride.

That said, I absolutely hate it more than anyone when Chinese people cheat China and steal its money to invest in foreign assets more than anybody. But the fact is that first of all, every government struggles with corruption; if you attack your own (especially in a time of global competition), you only hurt your own society and serve its enemies. Secondly, the CCP under Xi is undergoing a rigorous anti-corruption drive and has vastly changed the way Chinese officials spend money for the better (although still much progress awaits). Thirdly, I am Chinese and I love Chinese society and its people and accept their faults, especially the ones that we are working to correct. Attacking Chinese officials in their hour of service and importance to their country simply because they are flawed will only undermine China's interests. Simply put, no matter what complaints you have against the CCP as an imperfect government, as a Chinese person, when you attack the CCP, you are slitting your own throat. So, I give them my unwavering support.

Josh Luo said:

First, the ethnic conflicts you mentioned do exist, and they are probably more serious than you and I think. That's why see problems in Xinjiang, Tibet, and Hong Kong independence movements. Even without U.S. and Soviet incitements, these movements would still exist. Secondly, while China is indeed ruled by the CCP, are CCP rules benevolent and treating every citizens (including CCP officials themselves) equally before the law?

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Same question can be asked about any government in the world and Chinese historical dynasties. The answer is not simple and straight. The point is, don't use microscope to JUST look at PRC, but ignoring everyone else. PRC may not be the saint government, but certainly no worse than others. That bring us back to point zero, why the "anti-CCP is not anti-China".

manqiangrexue said:

China rises under the CCP. The CCP serves China and will guide it to the top of the world. If the CCP falls, China falls into oblivion and fades into history. It's bid to become the strongest nation in the world is gone, at least in your lifetime. There is no mighty Chinese nation without the CCP. If you love China, you love the government that serves and guides it. If not, then you hate China and you want its people to be condemned to live without relevance or pride.

That said, I absolutely hate it more than anyone when Chinese people cheat China and steal its money to invest in foreign assets more than anybody. But the fact is that first of all, every government struggles with corruption; if you attack your own (especially in a time of global competition), you only hurt your own society and serve its enemies. Secondly, the CCP under Xi is undergoing a rigorous anti-corruption drive and has vastly changed the way Chinese officials spend money for the better (although still much progress awaits). Thirdly, I am Chinese and I love Chinese society and its people and accept their faults, especially the ones that we are working to correct. Attacking Chinese officials in their hour of service and importance to their country simply because they are flawed will only undermine China's interests. Simply put, no matter what complaints you have against the CCP as an imperfect government, as a Chinese person, when you attack the CCP, you are slitting your own throat. So, I give them my unwavering support.

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I understand your point that winning to geopolitical competition should be the priority for Chinese citizens (and HKers, who are also ethnic Chinese and protected by Beijing). However, do most CCP officials REALLY care about winning for China, or do they see everything as a game to enhance their own family wealth? Think about Ling Jihua, who defected to the CIA for losing a political struggle in China. He now happily lives in the U.S. with his cronies. So many more CCP officials have their mansions overseas and married their sons and daughters to well-connected foreigners. They are doing so just in case if they lose their power and privileges as a result of power struggles, their children and wives could still hold onto their illicit wealth overseas (and most importantly, switch side to support anti-China forces for survival). In fact, ever since Zhou Yongkang was arrested, his daughter in law all of a sudden started talking about freedom and waving American flag (she became a naturalized U.S. citizen when Zhou was in power). In other words, while CCP officials prevent Chinese citizens (like you) from speaking their minds about various way to improve the country's governance and legal system, the same officials are taking advantage of the West's open economy and political system not to enhance China's power, but the material interests of their own family and clan members. They just happen to use the PRC Party-State system as a platform to cover up their dirty works and real intentions. I am NOT calling for overthrowing the CCP (because I am afraid of chaos, too), but at least citizens (like you) should have a voice in how your country is run and be able to hold corrupt cronies accountable without retributions. In other words, if your leaders don't really care about winning for you and could be a potential traitor (on part with HK pro-independence individuals, but a lot wealthier), why should you bother to obey them? As Trump accuses Washington of being dominated by a corrupt, unpatriotic internationalist elite, I think the same accusation should actually be applied to the CCP.

You guys are all fussing about nothing. Please think independently and think strategically.
What I think, in China's perspective:

1. Protests (especially peaceful protest) doesn't matter in Hong Kong. Hong Kong has no military, it has no self sufficient industry. It is totally depend upon China. Like I say again and again, this is not happening in Shanghai, Shenyang or Chengdu, etc. It doesn't matter, It won't spread to the rest of China, especially now that the rioters has turn this into an identity politics war: Chinese Identity vs. HKer identity.

2. Hong Kong HAS A BORDER WITH MAINLAND CHINA. I said again and again, in terms of protests, the border is protecting China's interest by becoming a firewall that shield mainland from fast-spreading unrest and instability. This is assuming that the HK rioter's rhetoric has ANY aspect that could realistically earn sympathy from mainlanders in significant number. As soon as HK rioter start playing that identity politics game and deny they are Chinese, they have effectively alienated themselves from the mainland populace. To make matter worse, they call mainlanders all sorts of derogatory names like "locust" etc. They are brilliant, aren't they, lol.

3. Don't be a cheap attention whore who longs for the praises of Western Liberalism. I don't give a ******* about what western liberal media talk about. I care about what happens on the ground and what realistic geo-strategic implications it carries. As far as I see, there's nothing worth a sweat. The whole thing earn nothing but cheap talk-points for liberal mainstream media after their pathetic defeat at the hand of Donald Trump. Let it go, and give them hyenas some pity.

4. The only potentially effective harmful move the rioters can really come up with against China, is what I would call consistent "borderline terrorism". Like harassing and bashing passengers on metro system/public transport, occupying airport, severely vandalizing public/government property (especially important institutions like the legislature). This is potentially harmful, because this kind of distributed, decentralized sporadic attack will severely increase the cost of enforcing law and order in Hong Kong. This will put a huge strain in the Hong Kong Police forces and severely threaten the safety of the ruling elites in Hong Kong. If the rioter actually keep up that kind of attack for a long enough amount of time (2-3 years), it will turn Hong Kong into a very unsafe place and render the HK government an borderline "fail state". Under this kind of situation, the PAP will be forced to enter a much less orderly Hong Kong, in which they will effectively be fighting against guerilla "terrorists" in a prolonged conflict. This may become a bleeding wound that could significantly weaken China.

So far, what I have seen is that, after displaying the PAP forces massing at Shenzhen boarder, the rioters/protesters reverted back to that form of useless peaceful protest. And the funniest thing is that all the articles you guys have quoted so far from the so-called "anti-China" western liberal media all seems to imply that they urge the protesters/rioters revert back to peaceful protest. So, I am confused. Because strategically speaking, it seems that these "anti-China" media (or whoever behind them) are against really harming China's interest.

taxiya said:

Remember, Anglo-Saxons did NOT stop squeezing the Russians even after the fall of USSR. From that very recent lesson, any Chinese with an average IQ should have learned that "anti-CCP" is just another cover cloth and the enemy will continue with full force to squeeze Chinese even if CCP falls.

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This is true, and the Anglo-Saxon would indeed continue to squeeze their perceived opponents no matter what. However, the problem with the PRC is that it has an elites that is rotting the country from within, a threat that could hurt the ordinary Chinese people more than Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxon world order was merciless toward the Russian people, but so were President Yeltsin and his cronies, who stole Russian people's money and bought almost every property around Hyde Part in London.

Josh Luo said:

I understand your point that winning to geopolitical competition should be the priority for Chinese citizens (and HKers, who are also ethnic Chinese and protected by Beijing). However, do most CCP officials REALLY care about winning for China, or do they see everything as a game to enhance their own family wealth? Think about Ling Jihua, who defected to the CIA for losing a political struggle in China. He now happily lives in the U.S. with his cronies. So many more CCP officials have their mansions overseas and married their sons and daughters to well-connected foreigners. They are doing so just in case if they lose their power and privileges as a result of power struggles, their children and wives could still hold onto their illicit wealth overseas (and most importantly, switch side to support anti-China forces for survival). In fact, ever since Zhou Yongkang was arrested, his daughter in law all of a sudden started talking about freedom and waving American flag (she became a naturalized U.S. citizen when Zhou was in power). In other words, while CCP officials prevent Chinese citizens (like you) from speaking their minds about various way to improve the country's governance and legal system, the same officials are taking advantage of the West's open economy and political system not to enhance China's power, but the material interests of their own family and clan members. They just happen to use the PRC Party-State system as a platform to cover up their dirty works and real intentions. I am NOT calling for overthrowing the CCP (because I am afraid of chaos, too), but at least citizens (like you) should have a voice in how your country is run and be able to hold corrupt cronies accountable without retributions. In other words, if your leaders don't really care about winning for you and could be a potential traitor (on part with HK pro-independence individuals, but a lot wealthier), why should you bother to obey them? As Trump accuses Washington of being dominated by a corrupt, unpatriotic internationalist elite, I think the same accusation should actually be applied to the CCP.

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Dude, don't be a hard-line stubborn Socialist/Communist. Look at what on earth you are talking about! CCP is successful, powerful, and enjoyed longevity precisely because they have never been stubborn Socialist/Communist that stick to dogmas like some kind of religion.