CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

Status
Not open for further replies.

Equation

Lieutenant General
Not really.

The biggest constraint would be the power plant. The power plant installed on 001A is not powerful enough to propel an 80,000+ ton carrier at sufficient speed, even though it might be more powerful than the one in Liaoning. Since China really aims for the nuclear-powered carriers and the conventional carrier(s) is just an intermediate step, it's not worthwhile investing heavily to continue to improve the existing power plant or design a new class.

What are the main differences between a 002 and 001A carriers? CATOBAR vs STOBAR, for sure. But China apparently has mastered the steam catapult. What else? Do you really think it's such a giant leap from a 60 kt carrier to an 80 kt carrier for China? Why do people still doubt China's industrial and technology capabilities? Granted, there's been some progress: before Liaoning, people doubted if China could make arresting wires.

Doubters, naysayers, and haters will continue to hate and invent excuses no matter what China does. Why? Because this great ancient country is coming back as a super power in every way, therefore frightens them. They fear that everything that they believe and hold dear in their institutions will be diminish and become irrelevant.
 

snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Yes of course.
CV-16 had entire power train installed when sold to China, boilers and steam turbines are installed at early stages of construction, to avoid unnecessary cutting and welding, there's plenty of pictures from Nikolaev shipyard proving this.

The boilers and turbines on 051, 051B and 051C are essentially the same as KVG-2/3 boilers and TV-12 turbines on Sovremenny DDGs and Kuznecov and, respectively, CV-16. Which means that China has absolutely no trouble to build boilers and turbines for CV-17.

Reliability depends not so much on the design and manufacture of the actual hardware but rather on qualification of the personnel, quality of water and maintenance of the machinery. China has never reported any serious trouble operating the four Pr.956 DDGs and only a single incident has been reported on CV-16.
 

sequ

Captain
Registered Member
Doubters, naysayers, and haters will continue to hate and invent excuses no matter what China does. Why? Because this great ancient country is coming back as a super power in every way, therefore frightens them. They fear that everything that they believe and hold dear in their institutions will be diminish and become irrelevant.

True that. The old powers are frightened to see new powerful countries rise up and challenge them.
 

Franklin

Captain
Interesting time line comparison between IJN and PLAN which is roughly about the same.But whereas IJN got help from British navy, The Chinese has to struggle by themselves Added to the that the technical embargo or ITER, make it double difficult. Notice the time when Japan introduce Carrier 1922 so China is late by 90 years!. So if China can now cut down that lag to 20yr or even 30yr they did great job

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

What Does China's New Aircraft Carrier Mean for the Liaoning?

China seems to be taking the same careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period.

By
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

May 01, 2017

As several Diplomat articles have noted,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The ship, built to a design similar to that of Liaoning, is the largest military vessel ever constructed in China, and represents a major national achievement. The new carrier (provisionally named Shandong) will enter service in 2020, some eight years after her half-sister Liaoning, and 30 years after her other half-sister, Admiral Kuznetsov, the lead carrier in the Soviet vessel class Liaoning originally belonged to.

Although separated by the gulf of nearly a century, it’s worth considering the progress of the Chinese program against that of the Japanese carrier aviation program in the 20th century. Both the PLAN and the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) started from nearly scratch, and the progress of the former has closely tracked that of the latter.

In December 1922 the IJN commissioned Hosho, the world’s first purpose-built aircraft carrier. Hosho displaced about 9,000 tons, very small even for an interwar carrier. She could carry about 15 aircraft, depending on configuration, and steam at roughly 25 knots. She was smaller than contemporary British carriers, but the keel-up construction gave her an advantage over larger conversions.

The PLAN has undertaken its naval aviation program with minimal foreign assistance. It acquired the hulk that became Liaoning from Ukraine, and the Su-27 from Russia, but has otherwise had to manage the complications of a new carrier program on its own. The Japanese, on the other hand, had some help. The IJN had maintained connections with the Royal Navy since the second half of the 19th century, and at one point ordered most of its heavy ships from British yards. Thus, when the IJN jumped into carrier aviation, it had assistance from the only country in the world that had experience with aircraft carriers. The British had been flying from carriers since 1918, and British pilots were among the first to land on HIJMS Hosho. These pilots helped train the first contingent of Japanese pilots.

Hosho would serve as Japan’s only carrier for five years, before the completion of HIJMS Akagi in 1927, a timeline roughly similar to that of the PLAN. Most of Hosho’s duties involved training, and the development of tactics and techniques for handling aircraft that would become central to the progress of Japanese naval aviation. Many analysts expect Liaoning to perform these kinds of duties for the foreseeable future. Two additional carriers would enter service in the early 1930s, although all of the ships (except Hosho) underwent significant refits. In January 1932, alongside those of HIJMS Kaga, Hosho’s aircraft would conduct the IJN’s first carrier combat operations, against Chinese positions during the Shanghai Incident.

Despite participating in some combat operations at the beginning of World War II, Hosho continued to serve mainly in her traditional role as a training vessel. Surprisingly, she survived the war, despite taking serious damage in several air attacks in 1945. Pressed back into service to return Japanese military personnel after the war, she was scrapped in 1946.

At the moment China seems to be taking the same kind of careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period. Liaoning has already enjoyed a remarkable career; it remains to be seen whether she will, in the aftermath of the commissioning of her more modern half-sister, continue to conduct primarily training duties, or whether she will be placed in an operational role.
The Liaoning will continue to carry the label of "trainer carrier for scientific research" and will not be assigned to any fleet. The Liaoning wil likely pair up with the Shandong to do fleet defense and ASW should a conflict break out.

The value of Liaoning as a trainer carrier will be significantly diminished after China convert to CATOBAR carriers after Type 002.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Liaoning will continue to carry the label of "trainer carrier for scientific research" and will not be assigned to any fleet. The Liaoning wil likely pair up with the Shandong to do fleet defense and ASW should a conflict break out.

The value of Liaoning as a trainer carrier will be significantly diminished after China convert to CATOBAR carriers after Type 002.
Yes, but they will have two carriers of the same design...each capable of a very decent airwing of J-15s, and each capable in its own right of performing China's carrier operations.

My guess is that those two will have some very specific areas of assignment, and that they will be mutually supportive whenever necessary as the PLAN begins operations with the newer CATOBAR carriers.

They wiill use that first CATOBAR carrier similarly to the Liaoning in terms of training up the crews to perform deck and air operations using the new equipment.

That will take some time, just as it did with Liaoning.

In the mean time, they will have developed good proficiency with the other two carrier's operations and use them accordingly.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Propulsion of CV-17 CG (中国首艘国产航母日前下水,将要开展舾装工作。除了武器和电子设备外,航母最重要的部件应该就是动力系统了。(来源:魔牛小队 超级大本营CDF)

View attachment 38443
View attachment 38444
View attachment 38445
View attachment 38446
View attachment 38447
View attachment 38448
Those are GREAT pictures and very revealing in terms of the propulsion of the carrier.

I expect that they are very near to being spot on accurate.

No, there is no doubt that China can build and operate propulsion plants capable of driving a Kuznetsov, Liaoning, Shandong sized carrier.

The Liaoning has been operating very regularly now for several years (much more regularly and with a much higher tempo of operations than the Russians operate the Kuznetsov). The proof is in the pudding.
 
Last edited:

kwaigonegin

Colonel
The Liaoning will continue to carry the label of "trainer carrier for scientific research" and will not be assigned to any fleet. The Liaoning wil likely pair up with the Shandong to do fleet defense and ASW should a conflict break out.

The value of Liaoning as a trainer carrier will be significantly diminished after China convert to CATOBAR carriers after Type 002.

Which is another reason why I believe Liaoning will not remain on duty like the typical lifespan of a carrier. 20 -25 yrs for her max since launching.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Unlike high bypass TFs, ship boilers and steam turbines are not rocket science .. literally.
I have no doubt an outfit like Harbin Boiler Co. can produce decent marine diesels to power large tonnage ships w/o much difficulty given enough capital is poured into the initial development. R&D would be minimal compared to jet engines.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top