CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations
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Intrepid
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It isn't larger!
Hendrik_2000
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Interesting time line comparison between IJN and PLAN which is roughly about the same.But whereas IJN got help from British navy, The Chinese has to struggle by themselves Added to the that the technical embargo or ITER, make it double difficult. Notice the time when Japan introduce Carrier 1922 so China is late by 90 years!. So if China can now cut down that lag to 20yr or even 30yr they did great job
What Does China's New Aircraft Carrier Mean for the Liaoning?
China seems to be taking the same careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period.
By
May 01, 2017
As several Diplomat articles have noted, . The ship, built to a design similar to that of Liaoning, is the largest military vessel ever constructed in China, and represents a major national achievement. The new carrier (provisionally named Shandong) will enter service in 2020, some eight years after her half-sister Liaoning, and 30 years after her other half-sister, Admiral Kuznetsov, the lead carrier in the Soviet vessel class Liaoning originally belonged to.
Although separated by the gulf of nearly a century, it’s worth considering the progress of the Chinese program against that of the Japanese carrier aviation program in the 20th century. Both the PLAN and the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) started from nearly scratch, and the progress of the former has closely tracked that of the latter.
In December 1922 the IJN commissioned Hosho, the world’s first purpose-built aircraft carrier. Hosho displaced about 9,000 tons, very small even for an interwar carrier. She could carry about 15 aircraft, depending on configuration, and steam at roughly 25 knots. She was smaller than contemporary British carriers, but the keel-up construction gave her an advantage over larger conversions.
The PLAN has undertaken its naval aviation program with minimal foreign assistance. It acquired the hulk that became Liaoning from Ukraine, and the Su-27 from Russia, but has otherwise had to manage the complications of a new carrier program on its own. The Japanese, on the other hand, had some help. The IJN had maintained connections with the Royal Navy since the second half of the 19th century, and at one point ordered most of its heavy ships from British yards. Thus, when the IJN jumped into carrier aviation, it had assistance from the only country in the world that had experience with aircraft carriers. The British had been flying from carriers since 1918, and British pilots were among the first to land on HIJMS Hosho. These pilots helped train the first contingent of Japanese pilots.
Hosho would serve as Japan’s only carrier for five years, before the completion of HIJMS Akagi in 1927, a timeline roughly similar to that of the PLAN. Most of Hosho’s duties involved training, and the development of tactics and techniques for handling aircraft that would become central to the progress of Japanese naval aviation. Many analysts expect Liaoning to perform these kinds of duties for the foreseeable future. Two additional carriers would enter service in the early 1930s, although all of the ships (except Hosho) underwent significant refits. In January 1932, alongside those of HIJMS Kaga, Hosho’s aircraft would conduct the IJN’s first carrier combat operations, against Chinese positions during the Shanghai Incident.
Despite participating in some combat operations at the beginning of World War II, Hosho continued to serve mainly in her traditional role as a training vessel. Surprisingly, she survived the war, despite taking serious damage in several air attacks in 1945. Pressed back into service to return Japanese military personnel after the war, she was scrapped in 1946.
At the moment China seems to be taking the same kind of careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period. Liaoning has already enjoyed a remarkable career; it remains to be seen whether she will, in the aftermath of the commissioning of her more modern half-sister, continue to conduct primarily training duties, or whether she will be placed in an operational role.
What Does China's New Aircraft Carrier Mean for the Liaoning?
China seems to be taking the same careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period.
By
May 01, 2017
As several Diplomat articles have noted, . The ship, built to a design similar to that of Liaoning, is the largest military vessel ever constructed in China, and represents a major national achievement. The new carrier (provisionally named Shandong) will enter service in 2020, some eight years after her half-sister Liaoning, and 30 years after her other half-sister, Admiral Kuznetsov, the lead carrier in the Soviet vessel class Liaoning originally belonged to.
Although separated by the gulf of nearly a century, it’s worth considering the progress of the Chinese program against that of the Japanese carrier aviation program in the 20th century. Both the PLAN and the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) started from nearly scratch, and the progress of the former has closely tracked that of the latter.
In December 1922 the IJN commissioned Hosho, the world’s first purpose-built aircraft carrier. Hosho displaced about 9,000 tons, very small even for an interwar carrier. She could carry about 15 aircraft, depending on configuration, and steam at roughly 25 knots. She was smaller than contemporary British carriers, but the keel-up construction gave her an advantage over larger conversions.
The PLAN has undertaken its naval aviation program with minimal foreign assistance. It acquired the hulk that became Liaoning from Ukraine, and the Su-27 from Russia, but has otherwise had to manage the complications of a new carrier program on its own. The Japanese, on the other hand, had some help. The IJN had maintained connections with the Royal Navy since the second half of the 19th century, and at one point ordered most of its heavy ships from British yards. Thus, when the IJN jumped into carrier aviation, it had assistance from the only country in the world that had experience with aircraft carriers. The British had been flying from carriers since 1918, and British pilots were among the first to land on HIJMS Hosho. These pilots helped train the first contingent of Japanese pilots.
Hosho would serve as Japan’s only carrier for five years, before the completion of HIJMS Akagi in 1927, a timeline roughly similar to that of the PLAN. Most of Hosho’s duties involved training, and the development of tactics and techniques for handling aircraft that would become central to the progress of Japanese naval aviation. Many analysts expect Liaoning to perform these kinds of duties for the foreseeable future. Two additional carriers would enter service in the early 1930s, although all of the ships (except Hosho) underwent significant refits. In January 1932, alongside those of HIJMS Kaga, Hosho’s aircraft would conduct the IJN’s first carrier combat operations, against Chinese positions during the Shanghai Incident.
Despite participating in some combat operations at the beginning of World War II, Hosho continued to serve mainly in her traditional role as a training vessel. Surprisingly, she survived the war, despite taking serious damage in several air attacks in 1945. Pressed back into service to return Japanese military personnel after the war, she was scrapped in 1946.
At the moment China seems to be taking the same kind of careful approach to its carrier program as Japan took during the interwar period. Liaoning has already enjoyed a remarkable career; it remains to be seen whether she will, in the aftermath of the commissioning of her more modern half-sister, continue to conduct primarily training duties, or whether she will be placed in an operational role.
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Intrepid
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https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/pl...lopment-news-thread.t8048/page-74#post-449127
I believe Liaoning is already operational...perhaps not Full Operational Capability...but certinly IOC. She would be ready to function in an operational mode at almost anytime.
Now that does not necessarily mean the same thing as "Fully Operational" for a US carrier. The philospohies and policies and procedures are going to differ.
Just the same, I believe the Chinese have proven that they can operate the Liaoning with a complete air wing and with a full strike group of ships surrounding her and maneuvering with her. ready to function operationally at almost any time.
I believe the CV-17 will be made operational with IOC in perhaps the 2019 time frame, and full operational capability in the 2020-2021 time frame.
By that time, the 3rd carrier will be launched (I believe) and will be outfitting.
As a side note, CV-17 is basically an improved Kuznetsov class...it is modeled after the Liaoning which was the 2nd Kuznetsov class...but has been improved in terms of its island, its hanger, and basic internal spaces and getting the modern sensors China has to offer. But IMHO, it would still be considered a Kuznetsov class carrier.
The Chinese now have two of them...something the Russians never achieved.
But it will be the next carrier that really brings on the true Chinese carrier class. A mold completely of their own...and I am impressed how they have gone about it. Cutting their teeth on a proven design that they got, completed and improved.
Now they will have plenty of real world experience under their belt...in building, in maintaining, in supporting, and in operating, so that they can put all of that to excellent use in coming up with their very own class that is specifically built to address their specific needs.
If the third Chinese carrier really turn out to be <75,000 tons, then I believe that would be because she is still heavily based on kuznetsov design, even if she dispensed with the ski jump and has catapults.
Not really.
The biggest constraint would be the power plant. The power plant installed on 001A is not powerful enough to propel an 80,000+ ton carrier at sufficient speed, even though it might be more powerful than the one in Liaoning. Since China really aims for the nuclear-powered carriers and the conventional carrier(s) is just an intermediate step, it's not worthwhile investing heavily to continue to improve the existing power plant or design a new class.
What are the main differences between a 002 and 001A carriers? CATOBAR vs STOBAR, for sure. But China apparently has mastered the steam catapult. What else? Do you really think it's such a giant leap from a 60 kt carrier to an 80 kt carrier for China? Why do people still doubt China's industrial and technology capabilities? Granted, there's been some progress: before Liaoning, people doubted if China could make arresting wires.
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